Stuart Laws: Comedy, Autism, and the Art of Beer Mat Flipping

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, screen rats, and welcome to another episode of Television Times.

And today, I have another guest for you who you're going to love.

Now, today's guest is Stuart Laws.

He's a comedian, but he also directs a lot of other comedians, does their specials.

He's directed, I'm just looking at the list now, he's directed James A.

Caster's last one, Heckler's Welcome, Ivo Graham, Jessica Foster Q, Olga Koch, Jan Brister's The Optimist, which I went to see, had no idea, Sean McLaughlin, so many, so many.

Just look at his IMDB.

But he's also an accomplished stand-up comedian himself, having done multiple Edinburgh shows.

And he is, he's just hilarious.

And I would see a show in Edinburgh this summer, and I met him afterwards and asked him to come on the pod.

And I was very, very happy that he did, because he was another one of those people that was on the same page as me in the Edinburgh Fringe guide.

So, you know, I like to tick that off in some kind of bingo way.

But I love Stuart and I've watched a lot of his stuff online, and he's very, very clever.

And also, he's back out on tour in early 2025 with his new show, Stuart Laws Has To Be Joking.

So go and get tickets for that if you can at stuartlaws.com.

Now, I'm not going to waste any more of your time this week, just because it's kind of December now, right?

It's kind of Christmas time.

So I've got a lot on my plate.

So, you know, no time in that.

But I will get around to telling you what's been going on, maybe in a future episode.

But for now, let's just get straight into my chat with the brilliant, wonderful Stuart Laws.

And I should mention this is the final episode that was recorded during the Edinburgh Fringe last summer.

There are no laws in comedy, but there are Stuarts.

Roll up, roll up, and welcome to another edition of Television Times with your host, me, Steve Otis Gunn, where I'll be talking to someone you do know or someone you don't.

It might be funny, but it might not be.

But it's always worth tuning in for.

So here we go with another episode of Television Times.

Your colorblind is something I noticed on one of your specials that you mentioned.

And I have this thing, I'm pretty sure, I wouldn't say the whole way, but getting face blindness as I get older, I kind of can't, like even though I've met you and I know that's you, I'll still be like, it's definitely him, right?

You know what I mean?

Like, I don't know if it's a nerves thing or whatever, like I can't.

I think just a lot of people in comedy look like me.

Sometimes I'm like, is that you?

I can't tell you, because I may can't as well.

And it's like the other day when you did your flipping, yes, because it was on Stuart Goldsmith's feed, not yours.

And I was like, is that Stuart?

That's not Stuart.

No, he's got gray hair.

I just get all caught up like I'm getting it wrong.

One of the many Stuarts that we all, if you dyed all our hair, we'd all look roughly the same.

You think so?

Yeah, I think so.

You've got Stuart MacPherson, Stuart Goldsmith, who else we got?

Stuart Lee, yeah, he's much, much older.

So you're special.

Are we allowed to talk about the physical comedy that you do, as in with your clothes?

Are you happy to talk about that?

Yeah, go on.

Because I love a bit of physical, like one of my favorite comedy things ever, I think it's Morkham and Wise, where they're just talking for ages and ages and ages, and maybe Eric Morkham is going, oh, I'm a bit uncomfortable and a bit uncomfortable.

And then eventually, like 20 minutes in, he pulls out a hanger from his T-shirt.

I think that's one of the funniest things ever to say.

And your thing with your, am I allowed to say, what would you call it?

A gilet.

A gilet, body warm.

That just got me because that's the kind of shit I love because it's a long gag and you're thinking, huh, that's quite tight, isn't it?

Why is he wearing that?

It's a bit hot in here.

Thinking, is he not going to take it off?

And then the fact that it is, you know, you can say it however you'd like to say it.

It's a very cunning visual joke.

And it's like an adaptation of the gag from last year's special.

And so I've got myself in a situation where wearing a gilet on stage has become my uniform.

And in the way that Harry Hill was like, you know, I loved Harry Hill when I was younger, has that uniform that I keep on trying to do away with the gilet.

And then I keep on being like, no, it sort of is sort of key to it.

And I thought to myself, I'm going to find a show where I say goodbye to it.

In the way that John Kearns was like looking for a way to say goodbye to the wig and then didn't do that.

He's not doing that right now.

Yeah.

Still doing it.

Yeah.

That we all have these uniforms and it was like, right, well, if I'm going to keep wearing it, then I've got to do something fun with it.

Yeah.

I've got to change the game a little bit with what I'm doing just so that it's not just a gilet.

Yeah.

So yeah, it's fun to do.

And I think, yeah, I watched a lot of Morkham and Wise when I was younger.

So maybe those sort of elements of that sort of humor and Vic and Bob and all of those sort of silly like sort of weirdly semi-clowny sort of things.

Yeah, like a physical, isn't it?

It's like, yeah, something.

I mean, there's an uncomfortableness to it as well, because it looks really like super tight, as they would say, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Like there's some literal comedy that I really enjoy with yours.

I'm allowed to say the cards on the table thing.

Yes.

Yeah.

Like, what's that all about?

And then it is just cards on the table, which is really brilliant, because what's he going to do with that?

And then you do some stuff.

But like, it's just that idea of those literal jokes.

Like, there's a thing in one of your shows, which one was that?

Oh yeah, it's The Grave New World, isn't it?

Where they open the wallet and a floppy disk falls out.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That floored me.

It's like, what the fuck would that be doing in there?

But it's just funny.

It's just like that.

I mean, that wallet joke, yeah, very, I think it also in there is like a Euro 96 loyalty card and, you know, just whatever ridiculous bunch of things I could think of to be like, I think, because that show is about the pandemic to be like, well, none of us have used our wallet in a year or whatever it was.

Well, yeah, that's when, did you go away from money?

I barely touch a coin anymore.

Yeah, so being up here is odd now dealing with cash again, because, yeah, my show is like ticketed, but there's always at least 10 seats that are allowed for anyone coming in.

And then they can put what they want in the bucket afterwards or pay by card.

And now I'm just like, what are we doing with all this cash?

And for legal, for tax purposes, it's not that much cash.

No, it's not much at all.

But you'll check it, you can check on my form, there will be cash.

Yeah.

That's the thing.

Like, did you...

Because the wallet thing is...

Do you carry a wallet?

Yeah, I do now.

You do?

Old school.

Yeah, I haven't had a wallet for years.

I spent a lot of time in Japan.

I had this tin that I kept my cards in.

Right.

And then the cards obviously now...

I was a late adopter to smartphones.

I would say I was a late adopter.

2018, 2019.

That's quite late.

That is late, yeah.

Yeah, because I was like, not against them, but just like, I don't want to fucking get involved in all of that.

I have that in my pocket.

Sure.

But the banking changed everything.

The tappy-tap, paying and all that.

I'm a big fan of that.

Oh, a huge fan.

I just don't like touching dirty old coins.

I still find it difficult, though, even if I'm going out for a night where I'm like, it'd be better if I don't have a bunch of stuff.

I'll pair it down to just the driver's license and a card, because even though I've got two cards on my phone, I'm still just like, maybe I'll need it.

The phone will fail.

You can't get a withdrawal with a phone, which is strange.

My partner uses just a bulldog clip, basically, and then puts all her cards just in a stack, and then just clips them, and then puts cash in there if she needs cash.

Yeah, that's cool.

I carry my card, and then I've got one of these things.

You know, the zippy thing.

Is there cash in there?

I have to have some cash here because of the red box noodles, but I carry one of these.

You seen these things?

No.

They're a, what are they called?

RFID card?

So you put that with your cards, and that way when people go by, they can't steal your, you know, steal payments by walking past you close.

You put that, it's like a data blocker.

Wow.

Only a couple of quid.

They're worth having.

Okay, I'll get a data blocker.

Because apparently, there's a lot of people, well, apparently, apparently, there's a lot of people walking by and just taking payments of small amounts, and then you don't see it, and it all just adds up.

Good on them.

Good on them.

I know this stuff.

That is cunning.

Yeah, because my show is about scammy stuff.

So, you know, it's the stuff I can't not see because I was brought up by, you know, criminal parents, let's just say.

But this podcast is all about television.

So I have some format questions.

Great.

But also, I want to ask you, because obviously you've been on television.

What was your first experience of being on TV?

When was that?

What was it like?

Well, actually, I think the first time was like an unexpected.

I mean, aside from being like a guest in the TV in an audience for a show.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Did you ever do warm up or?

Yeah, I've done warm up a few times.

And I would say it's such a thankless task that I would do it if the right, if people bought, I wouldn't want to get into it as like a long term thing.

Get stuck in it.

Yeah.

And I think I've got the skills to do it.

And I've done it.

I did it up here for like a TV thing that was here during the festival one year.

And it was like, you know, at that point, maybe that was 2015.

I'm like performing in front of like Reginald D Hunter and Catherine Ryan.

And they had people I found really funny.

But like you're like eating shit, just keeping the show ticking along.

And then you're in the middle of something and then you just hear in your ear.

All right, wrap it up.

And you're like, well, there we go.

You can't even end it.

Yeah, you feel like an idiot.

But, you know, the money is often pretty good.

I've also done a lot of warm up for like specials for TV, for stand up specials, sometimes paid, sometimes purely because I'm directing the special that...

Oh, right.

I didn't realize they have warm ups for comedy specials.

Yeah, so often you just have...

We try and minimize it when we, when my production company, we film a bunch of them.

We try to minimize it because you don't want to blast the laughs too much and generally the crowd is there for a stand up show.

Yeah.

And, you know, it's not like a TV show where it might not be a joke for the first four minutes or whatever.

It's coming hot.

Yeah.

So, you know, you might just have like five to ten minutes of coming in, doing the rules, explaining what's going on, getting them set up, a bit of crowd work just to sort of get everyone relaxed and then be like, and now we're going to have a big, big old enjoyable time.

And those are always fun.

Actually, I've done that a couple of times where I've had to go on because the opening act or like the person has left and we've had to do pickups at the end.

And yeah, you know, maybe the actor's like, you know, done a line slightly wrong or like stumbled over.

I mean, you've got some notes, you go out and do this again, but you're talking with the act backstage, going through the script, so you need someone to just step out.

And in that time when the producer's chatting, I've been like, well, I'll just go and do it.

And in that situation, they think I'm just the director.

And so I'm just like chatting to them and then playing it like I've never been in front of an audience before.

And just trying to keep the energy alive in that sense, where then the audience are just like, holy shit, this guy's never been in, but he's smashing this.

And it keeps that energy going of just like, of me being like, well, very odd for a first gig.

And I remember Ivo Graham's special we filmed at the Bloomsbury Theatre.

I had to come out and do that while he was getting the notes backstage for about six minutes.

And every now and then we'd be like, oh, no, they're still going.

And the audience would find it very funny that I was like stranded out there on stage dealing with it.

And then a couple of people who work in TV are there watching the show that I know, text me afterwards being like, absolutely smashed it, mate, gig of your life.

In general, the TV thing is always so much more underwhelming or sort of not noticeable in a way that you think it will be such a big thing.

And this was so much in the same with radio.

You think, oh, this will be the big moment when I feel like my career is like taking that next step or has done that and it always is just like, oh, yeah, that's just another gig.

Because your boundaries shift constantly with you as you, you know, are doing different things.

And so the first time I was on TV was Dave doing Hypothetical.

Now, I wasn't a guest on Hypothetical, this panel show that James Acaster and Josh Widdicombe hosted.

I was just in one of the segments because I was filming them and James was like, can you just be in this?

And then we'll do it.

And so in that situation, because I've been filming stuff my entire life and been filming myself my entire life.

Yeah.

Just is like the most normal natural thing.

So you have no problem with a camera in your face?

No.

Because that's the thing that people, what I've spoken to, the initial thing is, oh my god, there's a camera in my face.

What do I do now?

What about my big face on television?

People do get funky with it.

First time I did stand up, I was sort of slightly more anxious because there's a bunch of the crew that knew me and knew me as a director.

And, you know, wanted to not die on my arse in front of people who have like respect me professionally.

Who then go, well, he does stand up, does he?

Because I normally keep it quite quiet if I'm directing.

I'm not like, I'm also a comedian sort of thing.

I'm trying to be like, you know, focus on the job.

It's your job, yeah.

Bam, bam, bam.

And so that was the, maybe one of the few times that I've had nerves going into it, but it was purely because I didn't want people who I got on with to think, oh, this guy's a fucking idiot.

Yeah, it's that, any kind of jump from anything, like I started as a sound engineer, or I started as a musician, then sound engineer, then I worked in theater, then I worked up here and worked my way up to production manager, gave it all up, went away, wrote a book, wrote some comedy, made a show.

So I think I've kind of earned it in a way, but whenever, like, I get a small audience or it isn't quite working, I just think the techs will think I'm a fucking loser.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah.

That's what I think.

They don't think that.

They have no concept, but that's what I think they think.

They think, who do you think he is, getting up there, trying this shit?

He has no idea what he's doing.

Rubbish.

This isn't even funny.

It is interesting how you're constantly judging yourself on those, like, different weird sort of thinkings.

Yeah.

For me, like, this is the first year I've done The Fringe, where, like, there's been a bunch of articles.

I did a show last year that went very well, but, like, went under the radar.

Stuart Laws, Is That Guy Still Going?

Yeah, that's what it was called.

And it was slightly, you know, a funny title.

I just named it on a whim, just because I thought that's a funny name.

And then suddenly it was like, you got to name it for Edinburgh.

And I realized actually that it has thematically, like, an accurate title for a guy who at the time was 39, has been going for a while.

And in my head, there's a joke that got cut from it, but it was basically to do with, like, that the majority of the people that I started doing comedy with are now, like, mega stars.

With big podcasts.

With big, big podcasts, who are, like, you know, some of the best standups around.

And so I can't help but, like, feel compared to them in some way, or feel like, you know, if people know of me, they put me alongside them, and it's difficult to be like, oh, they're huge on TV all the time.

And then I'm to be like, where do I come in that pecking order?

And then you forget so many others who also started with us, don't do it anymore, or, you know, have left the industry.

And so the show is a little bit of that sort of like exploration of is that guy still going, but also at the same time about a personal story where it was also thematically relevant.

But this is the first year where all the articles and reviews and things like that seem to like, this is odd, maybe I've got a bunch of reviews still to come out, but they have respect for me in a way that I haven't.

Becoming elder statesman?

Yeah.

In a way that I'm like, oh, now I am part of the scenery and doing the beer mat flipping the other night, I was like, oh, this feels like there's 150 people crammed in here, big line up, and it's an odd position to be for someone who for a long time has always been like, oh, I'm like semi irrelevant, just sort of cracking on making a living from it, but not in comparison to my peers.

And now to be like, oh, yeah, people are sort of paying attention, weird to you're, as I was saying, you're like how you view your career shifts because you move.

So then the upper and lower boundaries shift.

And so this year I've been full most days and I have to accept that that is unusual.

As a performer, you are taking in the energy of the room and you're trying to respond to everything and it's so much easier to respond to something that feels negative from an audience member.

And to be like, fuck, I need to mention that because that's what everyone's feeling.

Drunken at the bank.

Yeah.

But the truth is like someone on the front row staring at you, not enjoying it isn't being felt by other people.

It's only felt by other people if you bring it uploads.

Yeah.

So like there is a temptation and you know, mostly you hope for me, I'm trying to not be confrontational, I'm trying to be like, here's a friendly thing, or like if you see someone who's not enjoying it, to try and do something that's like nice or like a little comment on it that sort of cuts that tension and then you can move on from it.

But I think more recently, I've been more aware of like, number one, don't mention anything, play it like you're smashing it.

Everyone will think that you're smashing it.

That is I think, you know, if the strength, if your show is strong enough, like it will speak for itself.

Yeah, the other thing is like, with greater awareness of neurodiversity now, of being like, there's so many different ways that people are enjoying shows.

And it can be, and this sort of does go both ways, but like, there can be a situation where like, I've had people getting up, moving around, going to the toilet, coming back.

And my instinct is to be like, what the fuck are you doing?

It's an hour.

Just fucking watch the show.

Or like, you know, being like uncomfortable or something like that.

And what I've realized is that I've just spent years and years and years as a neurodiverse person, but not knowing it.

Like suppressing all those things and making myself deeply uncomfortable.

And during shows at times, not necessarily going to the toilet because I'm an adult, I can hold my bladder.

I'm an adult, not quite old enough to not be able to hold his bladder.

But like, there are loads of like things that are discomforting in a room that I've always managed to like suppress or push down.

And maybe that's not a healthy thing and actually trying to be a bit more relaxed about your performance and that if someone is like not able to look at you or wants to have their headphones on or it needs to get up at some point and walk out, then that is like things that shouldn't be brought up on.

It should be just sort of like, if you don't mention it, I definitely have had four walkouts.

Two was a husband and wife when he said something misogynistic and I had to have a go at him for it.

And then they left 15 minutes later and then there was like another one that left, you'll see it sometimes when, basically it was like 10 minutes before the end of the show, they got up and left and they said to someone on the way out and the staff, are we going to another show?

Yeah, that's quite common.

Yeah, it's annoying that.

It is annoying because I'm just like, are you prioritizing the start of that show over the end of my show?

Yeah, just make sure the distance is on the app.

It says kind of close.

Yeah, but like in those situations, I didn't say anything.

I just let them walk out because like, I know that it ruins it for other people to bring it up.

If you have to leave and you're in the front section, it's very noticeable.

It would be awkward.

Yeah, and I don't know.

No one's done that yet.

But like, yeah.

He literally trip over you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it is small and tight.

Interesting as well is, this is the other thing, so many performers don't really notice, is the value of watching a show in the room that you're doing it, because the height of my room is two sections, small, narrow, low ceiling.

The bottom section, the acoustics are very different to the top section.

And the top section is like three steps up, but it's very separate.

And if you watch a show back there, the laughs for a start from back there don't carry to the front of the room.

So as a performer, it can sometimes feel the back is a bit disconnected, but when you're sat there, you're having a great time, and it feels like everyone's laughing and having a good time.

But there's all these sort of dynamics.

You must be able to see everyone.

I saw Eurico in there as well.

What I mean is that we're literally with you.

The front bit anyway seems like you're doing it in someone's living room.

And then the rest of it obviously goes back quite far.

Yeah, I think you can cram 75 people in.

Maybe it's better than the old hot room next door.

Mark Nelson and the smelly hot room.

It's just so brutal, that room.

It stinks.

Yeah, at least mine has air conditioning and doesn't feel like there's a sickness there.

So if it's okay to ask, what kind of things were you suppressing before you knew you were autistic on stage?

What feelings were you having that you didn't know what they were and now you understand?

Sometimes it's audio stuff.

If the room, you might be sat in the precise area where the audio is bouncing right into, just in the wrong sort of area.

Sometimes it might be the lighting on stage and that sort of thing.

Like mine, I always try to keep my lights a little bit lower anyway.

And in my show, they dim even further as we get more.

It's supposed to be a bit where I'm in a relationship with the audience.

I go, should we get things a bit more comfortable?

And it's not a coincidence that then the lights dim even more, because the show is about...

So the bright lights make you feel what?

Like oppressed or...?

Yeah, there's like a sensory, like your brain is just working overboard to try and sort of deal with that.

I can understand that a bit, because when I go in super drug, I get very annoyed.

The lights are just so fucking bright.

It's like, is this a nuclear attack?

But I can't, I have to just walk straight out.

So stuff like that, and then sort of being around other people, and there are things like...

So one of the things on, as I was getting diagnosed, was realizing that going to live football games is something that I love and want to do, but has always caused me anxiety.

The crowds.

Yeah.

And like what would made it far, far worse and sort of confirmed a lot of the sensory stuff for me was being a season ticket holder and realizing I could predict all of the different conversations going on around me each week, because I was sat in the same seat every week and so were the people around me.

And so it was like, I know he's going to say, come on Tottenham, every seven to eight minutes.

And it just felt like I was going insane.

Wow.

Just like being it.

And it's not necessarily like, you know, that sounds funny and a bit annoying, but weirdly my brain then processing that knowing it's coming up, feeling tension about it coming up, then hearing it and then knowing that it was multiplying.

Yeah.

And then knowing each week it's happening and then going like, there's so much and obviously for various different people, it's very different sort of sensory things or it could be like social anxiety things.

It could be all sorts, but being aware of those a bit more means, you know, hopefully you can make it better.

And sometimes you can't because like the hive I know is bad for like audio things.

It could be quite...

Circular is going to bounce from the south point of view.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I'm not autistic or I think I have ADHD, but who doesn't?

But learning, I also learned stage management at college, so obviously I'm a list making lunatic.

Right, yes.

So I just, I mean, I've already made a list of every single show I've seen, just to make myself feel better, like I'm actually seeing shows, like 30 people, I'm fine.

But there is a kind of when you do a sound job as well, sound becomes incredibly annoying, like you notice because you have to, you have to train your ears, right?

So they're over trained, so they hear things that the average person wouldn't.

Yes.

And even with noise cancelling headphones, the things I hear that irritate me, like I move around on a bus, like there's something wrong with me, someone will sit behind me and I'm like, well, they're going to annoy me, I have to move now.

Sure.

Because why sit there and fester?

Just move.

Yes.

You might look weird, but the guy on the phone is not going to annoy me anymore.

You know, you've just got to keep...

And in a live, intimate live comedy show, it's difficult to do that.

So, I imagine there's been people who have come to the show who are stressed about it, who want to enjoy the show, but have things going on that is difficult to process.

And that has been an interesting thing for me.

It's interesting.

I mean, because I used to work on pantomimes as well, and we used to have relaxed performances.

Nice.

And all the sound effects down and make sure the band doesn't play so loud, and you'd have more of a neurodiverse audience.

And they don't do that for comedy.

It's so difficult to do, and it's like, you know, there's certain things like, you know, there's audience interaction in my show, but like, hopefully it's not.

It's easy, audience interaction.

You can basically say anything in reply, or like be like, no, and I'll move straight on.

I'm not going to like push.

Zoom in.

But like, I guess you'd have to get rid of audience interaction, have the lights down way lower.

But like, then that changes things, because then I can see the audience, and I'm trying not to see the audience.

And so I'm trying to ride that.

That's comfortable, I know.

This is just shifting the whole thing.

Yeah.

You'll do it with ours on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I've got a little favour to ask you.

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But for now, let's get back to the current episode of Television Times Podcast.

Oh, I want to hear about Chubby Bunny.

I did look at it.

I tried to watch it this morning, but I can't get the full version.

Oh, come here.

I found some trailers.

It was always the same bit.

That's an interesting project.

Did you write that as well?

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

That was 2012.

A short film just based on an idea me and a friend who I have a double act with had, which was basically what if your child died whilst playing the Chubby Bunny game where you got to put marshmallows in your mouth and see how many you can get in, and then the parents asking what their last words were.

It was difficult to hear, but we are happy to say that it was Chubby Bunny, and that means he does officially have a record 28 marshmallows.

Something like that.

But it was like that would be a funny thing.

I know that someone criticized it at the time, and obviously I remember this over all of the nice words that were said, but like that, why would the youth group leaders, which is what myself and Sarah Day can play in it, be the ones to break the news to the parents?

You go, yeah, of course, but that's just the film and it's just a silly film.

Five years later or six years later would have been a TikTok.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Obviously there will be people choking, but there would have been a TikTok challenge, wouldn't there?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

For sure.

Yeah.

They'd have to be vegan.

Yeah, yeah, which I mean are the worst marshmallows.

Have you had them?

I've had a vegan marshmallow, yeah.

I'm vegetarian, I've been for a long time.

Well, pescatarian now, but I don't eat marshmallows because of the pig fat.

So is it vegetarian?

I think so.

I think, yeah, yeah.

I'm pretty sure I've had.

It's a weird concept, marshmallows, like get some pig fat and cover it in sugar.

I love that.

I know my kids love it, too.

They're like, yeah, yum, yum, yum.

Yeah, delicious.

Fucking weird.

Anyway, but yeah, is it we I work my company.

We used to make loads more short films like that.

And that was like where we were like, we were trying to work with lots of different people.

And that was like part of our establishment is like, no, we we're not just do it.

We used to do a lot of corporate video making and that paid the bills for years.

And then I was like, I'd like we want, you know, want to make films.

We want to make TV.

And that was part of the move into comedy was like, let's make more short films with like comedy people.

Yeah.

Well, that was the other show you did with you.

Is he a friend of yours?

The Mark Smith versus the Public.

I saw a few episodes of that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So is that one of your production?

Yeah.

So, yeah, we do.

We do all sorts that are like, you know, with James Acaster, we did a couple of web series years ago.

Yeah, I saw some clips.

That led to us like working on a bunch of TV pilots, working on a bunch of like bits.

It led to us working on Hypothetical and then led to him wanting to use us to make his Netflix specials.

And that is like the business model that we had.

It really was like, let's work with people we think are funny before anyone wants to make stuff with them.

Make stuff and then they're like, these people are cool and they made something that I love to do.

And I wasn't like, you know, we're not pushing back and being like, you have to do this for the advertisers or it has to be like this because of our demographics.

We're just like, what do you want to make?

Great.

Here's where we think we can make it better.

Do you like that?

Yeah.

Great, let's make something together.

So this is something that always surprises me.

Where do all these pilots go?

What happened?

Tell us like maybe one story about you making a pilot and why it didn't work or why you think it didn't.

So in the US, pilots are like made so much more like lavishly and like so much more money is spent on them just because there's so much more money over there.

They just bin it.

Yeah.

Whereas over here, the world sort of went slightly away from it.

So like Fleabag was made as a pilot a long time before the series was commissioned.

With her just on the stool doing the thing or was it an actual TV?

For the TV show.

So they made the first episode of it because a friend of mine was in it.

And it was super low budget.

She had one scene, I think, or two scenes.

But basically, there was so little budget that they had to film the entire scene in like 15 minutes because they'd run out of time in the day.

And they had this hard get out on the street.

And there was no time for like, you know, being like, oh, we'll push it.

And we'll do it tomorrow.

Yeah, there was no room to do that.

So it was literally, you have now got a two and a half minute scene, and we need to film all of it in 15 minutes, coverage, multiple angles, all of that.

So it's like bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, done, and then out.

And then the pilot sat on the shelf for like a year, I think.

And then for some reason out of nowhere, they decided, right, we're going to just commission it and then made the rest of the series and the pilot is the first episode.

Oh, really?

So that is the same?

Oh, right, they didn't redo it.

And then my friend Kat Sadler, who made Such Brave Girls, which is an incredible series on BBC.

Again, they did that where they made the pilot.

It was supposed to just go out on iPlayer and it came out.

It was made as part of a gang of like other pilots that all were released on iPlayer and then went on BBC3, I think.

But they held Kat's back because they decided from making the pilot that they wanted to do straight to series.

And they reshot a couple of bits from the pilot.

But largely, the pilot is the first episode with a few reshot bits.

But that sort of, I think people are trying to do it more, but I can't work out whether or not TV or BBC or Channel 4 with blaps and things like that are trying to do this sort of like, and here's a pilot that you can see because it gives them a chance to do it lower budget and work with a broader range of people.

But what is more common is to do like a taster or a sizzle reel these days, which is like a few scenes from the thing you want to make, which is really low budget or like a sizzle, which is just like a three to five minute sort of like highlights of what it could be.

So I'm looking to take Beermat Flipping and pitch that to TV.

So I will take footage from the other night.

As like a game show?

Yes, basically.

And take that, cut that into like a two to three minute like, look at this, we've got big names in, we've got crazy crowd reactions, we've got like all of the, I think the show works because you've got like the humor of what all of the people bring to it and that chaos, but you, essentially the sport is so easy to understand, has the mat flipped and being caught.

Yeah.

That and because the rounds are like slightly different and it makes different things that every time we've done it, the sporting spectacle of it has also worked.

Like people have been invested in like, who's going to actually win and where, you know, and how Stuart Goldsmith won the other night with the double 11 flip and it being so smooth.

It was just great.

What a great moment.

And so for that, I will cut this sizzle.

And that is sort of like a thing that a lot of people do.

So it's interesting because like with Acaster, we shot a pilot for a thing where he would like join different causes and we went along and filmed with some people who are doing anti-fracking protests.

And James was like getting to know them and like, you know, in like a really nice, fun way of him, you know, in our documentary series we made for YouTube, it was him just fish out of water even in his own hometown.

Yeah.

And this was like him fish out of water in like getting to know people and trying to understand their cause and sort of be supportive.

And basically what we learned making the YouTube series was, and it's basic, but it's like just yes, understanding everything in that improv way of just being like whatever anyone pitches, you say yes to and you go with it and you see what that leads to.

You know, taking that forward with the, I can't remember what other pilot stuff we did really.

There was like a little period of time where James was in such like hot demand as like this extra person to be an extra person in shows or to have his own show.

We must have filmed five or six different pilots or tasters or sizzles.

Yeah.

And that one I do remember spending a bunch of time, I can't even remember where it was now, but with this group of people who are protesting fracking and getting unfortunately the motion was passed to allow the fracking.

So it was actually quite a downbeat thing.

And that would never have seen the light of day.

Fracking's gone now, isn't it?

Fracking's gone.

They bring it back in America, I think.

Are they?

The non-broadcast pilot didn't help.

TV theme tune or jingle.

Whatever you want, however you interpret it.

It would be from Angel, the Buffy spinoff.

Oh yeah, what's that?

How's that?

I cannot reproduce it in any way, but it was so atmospheric and ethereal.

It was really great.

I used to actually listen to a lot of TV themes.

X-Files obviously, Red Dwarf, Red Dwarf, yeah.

Alias.

We used to speak to Ben Crompton, he's mad on the TV themes.

Really?

Yeah, he goes collectible.

But I think Angel is probably the best one.

It's got these nice violins slash cello sort of notes to it, really good.

In fact, I'm going to listen to it after this.

Okay, you listen to it after this.

I'll listen to it and then I'll interpret it in a high-pitched voice and knock it in here because I can't pay the royalty.

Beep beep.

What's the funniest thing you ever saw on TV?

Funniest thing I've ever seen on TV?

I mean, it is always Arrested Development.

Oh, great.

That's not come up yet.

I cannot believe it has not come up.

It's always 40 Towns.

It's always Arrested Development, or it's Harry Hill, or it's Vic and Bob.

Like some of the Shooting Star stuff is mind-blowing, or it's Sean Lock's Carrot in a Box.

All right, yeah.

So go back to Arrested Development.

What's your favourite episode?

The complexity of Arrested Development is so absurd in how interlinked everything is.

Especially that last season.

Just I love how complicated it is and how much it rewards paying attention to things.

And the stacking of jokes on jokes on jokes is something that I've tried to mimic and mirror in my stand-up for years.

I've got a review in 2017 that said like a one-man episode of Arrested Development.

And it was like that is a compliment.

And this year I've had Vic and Bob and Sean Locke.

So I'm feeling like and I've gigged with Harry Hill this year.

So I'm like ticking everything off.

But like Arrested Development, like the thing that maybe made me laugh the most would have been some of David Cross's slapstick because as much as like the intricacy of it is funny.

I'm seeing him in his shorts refusing to take them off in the shower, painting himself blue.

There's so much as much as I can be like, oh, it's so clever how they do it.

Someone falling over well is just like unbeatable.

And it's so perfectly made that I think you could watch it every 10 years and just be or even less and be and you can't.

I mean, I've seen all of it twice.

Yeah.

And I can remember just bits of it.

And I know I'll be rewarded.

Yeah.

Do it again.

There's a bit when a couple of times at least Lucille is having like a morning martini and she keeps like gesturing with the hand with the martini in.

Yeah.

And Michael's like, you have to stop doing that because it's going all over the floor.

And then Tobias walks down and immediately slips on it.

But the way he slips is one leg just goes right up in the air and just stays up.

And it's just and then I think George Michael comes down and then slips on it as well.

And Michael's like, oh, your grand had an accident.

And just that like little like, that is four jokes layering on top of each other with slapstick.

Yeah.

It's great.

What just come to me now is where Liza Minnelli is playing.

Lucille 2.

And her apartment is getting smaller and smaller because they keep moving the wall.

Do you remember that?

Yeah, they keep moving the wall.

And she can't keep track of it because she has vertigo.

She keeps getting the disease.

That is genius.

Yeah.

And you just accept it, of course.

They have six plots happening at the same time.

They're all interlinked and pay off against each other, but they also have an overarching sort of thing where they're just like, wouldn't it be funny if her apartment is getting smaller?

And you just go, that level is just so unbeatable.

Yeah.

It's like Curb.

If Curb was also the whole series was also an arc.

Yes.

Although sometimes it is, but in a different...

To the level where they have to have a voiceover to crack through the plot because otherwise you can't get it in.

And then they went, right, but we'll make that funny as well.

Am I getting this wrong?

When season four, right?

Or was it five?

The one where it was a lot of episodes and then they re-edited it to make it linear.

Yes.

So four and five, the ones that we don't really talk about.

Yeah.

Did you control it?

I sort of did, but like only because it was like, oh, great to have my gang back.

But if I re-watch now, I'm not going to do a re-watch of four and five.

What's the TV show you saw as a kid that scared you?

It would be the Demon Headmaster, I guess.

Terrifying to think that teachers could be like that.

Yeah.

Because otherwise, you know, there's nothing scary about a teacher.

Not unless you grew up on Ireland.

Yeah.

Like I did.

It could be quite scary.

No, I remember that definitely being quite chilling.

And then I remember also staying up late to sort of catch, I think it was on Channel 5 or Channel 4, one of those where the Tales of the Crypt Keeper.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And being like feeling that it was so naughty to be watching that sort of stuff.

All kids do that though, trying to stay up and watch some kind of horror.

So exciting and you just then scar yourself.

There was just a real good, and I don't really know anything now, I'm not going to be one of those people, who's always not like the good old days, because I'm sure there's really good kids TV shows now that I just don't know about.

And like, you know, I've watched episodes of Bluey.

What an incredible show.

Bluey's fantastic.

So I'm sure there's like live action shows that are like now iconic for kids these days, but Demon Headmaster was just this great, like it's body snatchers.

It's like it's all of this sort of like suburban normal sort of stuff with an evil headmaster who can hypnotize people.

I think you might be the last generation to actually see scary stuff like that because now everything is so like not, I wouldn't say dumbed down, but you wouldn't make a kid show that is terrifying anymore.

I used to watch a TV show where these kids got in a tube train and the tube train literally went to hell.

Really?

It went down and down and down into a green place and the green place was hell.

And it made me terrified of the underground for years.

Wow, what a stretch.

Little gag there.

So where are you from?

It says Taplow.

Where is that?

I was born in Taplow, which is next to Slough.

Next to Slough, so the office.

Yeah, so basically that's where I grew up around that area and then moved to South Bucks, sort of like 10 miles north, which is then...

Is that nicer?

Yeah, and it became like so much nicer while we were there to a world where like annoyingly for like, you know, grants and funding.

You know, I cannot even begin to pretend to be working class because by the end of my teens, we were well off thanks to the housing boom and being lucky enough to be in an area where it really paid off.

That's right.

But for the first 15, 16 years of my life, but that doesn't pay off these days.

No, I grew up in various places, one of them including Dagenham in Essex, which is one of the biggest shitholes on earth.

I have gigged there.

Gigged in Dagenham?

What venue is that?

I can't remember now.

It's just like, you know, you do these gigs where you put it into your satnav, you arrive, you do your 20 minutes, you leave, and just within three months, you've forgotten it ever happened.

It's just rooms, isn't it?

Yeah.

It's like I've got techie mates and they fly to Hong Kong.

You go, how was Hong Kong?

No idea.

It was just a big dark box and I flew home.

Yeah.

It's awful.

I can't believe they do it.

One last question.

You pick a number from 1 to 22 and I'll just ask.

18, Jürgen Klinsman.

Which TV character do you feel an affinity with?

Jürgen Klinsman.

TV character.

Okay.

That's more difficult than...

Okay.

So this is a fun thing.

Rewatching Community and Abed.

It never being explicitly said that he's autistic, but like so as close to as possible.

Right.

Without actually saying the words, he is autistic and just rewatching it.

Maybe I've watched it all now three, four times.

Maybe this time was the first time since knowing I was autistic and watching it and being like, oh, there's that, there's that, there's that, there's that.

And it's an interesting sort of thing of like watching it with and seeing so many more things these days where I'm like that person's autistic coded.

But it's still like people are still not explicitly saying this person is autistic.

So Long Legs, the film that just came out.

Yeah, I haven't seen it.

Is it good?

Really great.

Like, I slightly wish it had lent either in one or other direction more.

Like at the moment, it's sort of down the middle of like two angles it could have gone.

Okay.

So like the last half hour, I was like, okay, I wish it was either more bat shit or more Silence of the Lambs.

And it tried to sort of go down the middle.

But Harker, the FBI agent that it follows, within like 10 seconds of her being on screen, I was like, she's autistic.

But like again, it's never addressed, but like there's so much.

And it's interesting seeing so much TV and so much stuff where people are autistic coded or neurodiverse coded or all of these different things.

But like it feels like still slightly like it can't be spoken out loud.

And our bed is like a really good representation of it in many ways.

And he has like a really like beautiful episode where he disappears into his like VR room and like is basically there's episodes where it seems like he's suppressing a meltdown.

There's like, you know, then they lean into some of the tropes and things like that.

But like, you know, very funny way.

And, you know, he's great.

Danny Pudi is very good at it.

But I think there's an episode where he talks about basically the crux of it is worried that people once people get to know the real him, that they won't want to know him anymore.

And it's like this really like emotional like well done bit to do with like unmasking basically, that in the middle of like a very stupid, silly sitcom, you're just like, this is really neatly done.

And this was never talked about.

Do you think this is just your reading of it?

Or is it?

No, it's definitely, definitely like intended as an autistic character and almost definitely less now.

But like 10, 15 years ago, there was a taboo around like calling a character autistic because there is like this expectation that it's like brain man.

Oh, yeah.

Well, the brain man, yeah.

How do you feel about, because I have friends who say to me, Oh, Steve, you should be tested.

You should be tested for AJG.

It gets thrown around a lot by people who don't know.

And they go, Oh, I think you're autistic.

I think you're.

And I just wonder, do you think it's getting thrown around too much or just assumed of people?

And should everyone be tested?

It's really dependent.

I find it interesting from like neurotypical point of view.

It's sort of often said in sort of quite a throw away, sort of like dismissive thing of a neurodiverse experience to be like, Oh, you're, you're, you know, all like saying to someone, Oh, you should get tested.

That's what I mean.

It's like an appropriation almost.

Yeah.

It's almost like someone has like, you know, someone's being shy or someone's been over organized or someone likes a specific thing.

And then they go, you should get tested as sort of like a slightly dismissive element of it.

I don't think it's positive at all.

And then there's the other side of like neurodiverse people being like, you know, basically the reason why I got tested was because enough neurodiverse people kept bringing it up.

And I'd always scored highly on online tests for autism.

But I'd just been like, yeah, that's just silly online stuff.

It's sort of not really concealed.

Yeah, the WebMD world.

Yeah.

Oh, it's cancer.

Yeah, yeah.

And then, yeah, having like Pierre and Abby and Fern like talk to me about it and understand it more.

My friend Abby, who I'd done some online sort of ASD sort of sketches with, she just referred to me as autistic.

Since she got diagnosed like four years ago, she just would always refer to me as autistic.

So it's being recognized by other people who are neurodiverse rather than just...

Yeah, slightly as dismissive.

Or like the other assumption is just the whole thing of like, oh, we're all on the spectrum, aren't we?

And you go, no, no, no, there is a spectrum.

And when you're on the spectrum, it's a spectrum.

From like high needs to low needs to high sensory stimulation to overstimulated low, to like social things, to whatever.

But not everyone is on the spectrum.

Oh, I didn't mean earlier when I said everyone's, I mean, I mean in this world, in Edinburgh, there's so many comedians.

Well, that's the other thing is that in the entertainment industry, there's going to be a huge amount more because like in the general population, it's maybe 10%, but in entertainment, that's where we're drawn to.

And so maybe it's 20, maybe it's 30%.

And then it feels like everyone is, and then that becomes like its own thing of just like, well, why do you think you're unique?

You go, well, have you ever gone into a normal office and just seen how little representation of like neurodiversity is there?

Or even like, look at the lighting in here.

It's a bit much.

It's not.

Please.

And like, there's nothing, like these booths are okay, but they're completely open to everything else.

I don't even know what this route is at university.

These are, I think these are classrooms and these are where the students, I didn't, I was going to say rehearse.

What do they do?

Yeah, I don't know.

Revise.

Revise.

Rehearse.

Yeah, I can't think of anywhere here that is like neurodiverse friendly at the moment.

No.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I guess it's a good point.

And I think, I mean, did you ever have any kind of, like, not wanting to be seen or not want to speak in public, even though that's what you do now?

Did you have any of that as when you were younger?

I don't like talking as myself.

Right.

This is what I was wondering.

And like only in the last couple of years with Stand Up and I've been more comfortable doing that.

And that's partly age, partly feeling like I have something worth saying on topics.

So last year about grief and permanence and this year about relationships and sort of self-knowledge and...

Yeah.

But once you're off stage...

Oh, the last thing I want to do is talk to anyone after a show.

Yeah.

Having to do the bucket afterwards is like...

I'm sorry, I spoke to you.

No, no.

It's just like horrifying to...

I know there's so many comics who love standing out and vicarying and getting to speak to everyone and receiving all the praise.

Well, I'm just like, no, I would like to go backstage now, not talk to anyone for an hour and then re-enter the world.

The best one I've ever seen is Rose Matafayo last year.

She was doing her work in progress and I went to see it.

And in the last few minutes, she's getting a coat on, getting her bag on, getting her glasses on.

I'm not joking, I am leaving.

Then she just walks out, out of the bag, gone.

And it's like, oh man, that is the way to do it.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh man, I wish I could do it.

Yeah.

And it's the odd thing is because as performers and as creatives, you want to be praised for your stuff.

But also when it happens, I'm like, this is the worst thing that could possibly happen to me.

It's embarrassing and awkward, isn't it?

I do not want to address this right now.

Because maybe it's partly not knowing entirely how you should act in that situation and then it becomes a more stressful thing.

Do you feel that you're acting?

You're acting like the comedian who should be talking to someone?

Or are you just yourself?

It's difficult to know really in that.

Because I'm like, well, I'm not on a stage now.

So there's no fourth wall element.

If I'm on stage, I've got a fourth wall that is like...

And people think that's you, don't they?

Like a brash comic can come off and they're just really sweet and they go, oh, he's not that guy.

Yeah, we were meeting Harry Hill in 2005 after he did a preview in my local town.

I chatted, I hung around to chat to him after that.

I'd never done comedy before and he was just this softly spoken, nice guy that I was like, couldn't believe that he was the person who was on stage doing all of those vocal tics and, you know.

I tried to talk to Jack Dee once in the late 90s and he was having none of it.

He's like, why are you talking to me?

I'm like, I'm so sorry.

Anyway, I'll end it there.

Thank you so much for coming on to Television Times.

I think we did talk about TV quite a lot, so thank you so much Stuart.

That was me talking to Stuart Laws at the Edinburgh Fringe last summer.

He's a cool cat, right?

I loved that chat, that was a good one.

And he was busy up there.

Not only did he have his own show, he was doing these other shows as well.

And this Michael Caine thing, he's probably setting up directing jobs.

Like I said, he's directed probably some of your favorite comedian specials.

And check out all of his own stuff.

He's a very funny guy, lots of clips online.

And go see him live.

Now to today's outro track.

Right, today's outro track is called The Projectionist.

It's from the album We Argue in Silence, which was remastered a couple of years ago and is on Spotify and everywhere, basically.

It's a song that I wrote about a friend of mine called Carianna, who had this relationship with an actual projectionist in an LA movie theater, right?

And she didn't want to walk past it after they broke up and stuff like this.

But he also projected certain things onto the relationship, so that's why I came up with this song idea.

Anyway, I think it's a good one.

It was recorded in America, it was written in about 2009, and I like this song, I like all the elements of it, so yeah, and I particularly love the middle part.

I love the middle part of this song, really, really do.

Anyway, let's get into it.

This is The Projectionist.

That was The Projectionist from the album We Argue in Silence.

And you can listen to that whole album online, it's everywhere, just check it out.

Anyway, I hope you enjoyed that, and I hope you enjoyed my chat with Stuart.

Come back next week for another great episode.

Until then, thanks for listening, and bye for now.

Look into my eyes.

Tell all your friends about this podcast.