Sanna Lenken: From Cappuccinos to Crystal Bears & the Art of Swedish Cinema

Good afternoon, good morning, good evening, screen rats.

Well, today we've got a great episode for you.

This one is coming to you while I'm actually away in Belgium.

I'm not at home, I'm on holiday with my family.

And this week, there will be no preamble or me going on about some kind of thing.

We're just going to get straight into it.

So picture the scene, it's 1997.

I am at college, I believe, in my second year or possibly second and third year of college, where I was learning stage management.

I got my degree in that in 98, where I passed with a first, which was quite impressive for someone of low academic stature, such as myself, and I only got away with that because, you know, I made it into a creative thing and sort of made my own stage in a way and kind of did a whole thing, which I've talked about before on his, I won't bore you.

But during that time, I worked many, many jobs, Pizza Hut, being one of them running around on a motorbike delivering pizzas, which I would combine with another job working in coffee bars and different coffee shops in London, one of which was Coffee Republic on the Strand.

And during that time, many people passed through that job.

But one of my friends who passed through and we became close was my friend Sanna Lenken.

Now, Sanna was, I think she said she was 19 when she moved to London and her and her friend Ginny Galtemann, I remember her as well.

She has gone on to do many things as well.

But Sanna walked around London with a camera, taking photos, all the time, always behind the lens, you know, looking at things and looking for angles.

And now Sanna Lenken is an award winning Swedish film director.

I mean, she's won the Crystal Bear at Berlin Film Festival twice with her two films, My Skinny Sister in 2015, followed by Comedy Queen in 2022.

This is an award winning film director, people, and we're going to talk to her right now.

I haven't spoken to Sanna for 25 years.

As mad as that sounds, we found each other on social media back in the day when Facebook came up and things like that, I think, and we didn't really talk much.

But when I started doing this podcast, I thought, well, I'm going to have to speak to Sanna.

She's a film director.

And not only that, she was literally the director of my favorite TV show that I've seen in years.

It's called The Thin Blue Line in English.

You can get it on Viaplay in the UK.

But this show is un-fucking-believable.

It is my favorite TV show in years, really.

It's about a group of police officers who are patrolling the streets of Malmo.

But it's about their stories, their internal sort of struggles.

And the world that Sanna has created with the writer Sile Yakurt, who is also coming on the podcast in a few weeks' time, is unbelievable.

It's so real.

It doesn't look like actors acting.

It's like you are watching life.

Someone is filming the real life of some police and you are just watching their lives.

And I thoroughly recommend it.

The second season is unbelievable.

There is a third coming up.

So let's just get straight into it.

Let's talk to Sanna Lenken.

Here we go.

Welcome to Television Times, a new podcast with your host, me, Steve Otis Gunn.

We'll be discussing television in all its glorious forms.

From my childhood, your childhood, the last 10 years, even what's on right now.

So join me as I talk to people you do know and people you don't, about what scared them, what inspired them, and what made them laugh and cry, here on Television Times.

It's nice to see you.

Nice to see you, but you're a bit blurry.

Am I?

I should settle, hopefully.

But I hear you.

You hear me.

How are you?

I'm a bit sick, so I'm in my bed.

I just, we work a lot.

We work 12 to 14 hours a day.

And then I have to go to Gothenburg.

So I live in Stockholm and I have to go every week to Gothenburg.

And...

Yeah.

And I mean, I have two kids at home, so it's a bit harsh to go or hard to go.

One second, I tried to lock my door.

Good sound effect.

So I just came home from work.

We finished at midnight last night.

And then I'm in Stockholm again.

And I'm going to start shooting on Tuesday, I think.

No, Monday.

Yeah.

Well, you said you're not sick with COVID, I hope.

No, I think I got sick because everyone is a bit sick because we're inside the room most of the time.

And it's very dirty inside there and we have 11 actors most of the time in front of the camera.

So it's hard not to...

I mean, it's easy to catch things.

Yeah, it's like a school or something.

If someone coughs, then everyone gets sick.

Yeah, I've got three kids.

Let's get the number right.

And one of them was off this week about two days ago with a cold.

And that changed my week.

And then my wife got ill yesterday with COVID.

So she's now isolating.

And it's the first time.

It's the first time.

And it's never been in this house.

We had this.

All four of us.

I had it when I had my premiere.

I made a film called Comedy Queen.

And it was, I got it on five days before the premiere.

Yeah.

And I had to do all my interviews on Zoom.

And I actually went to the premiere because here in Sweden, it was like, if you have been sick for five days and you feel okay, then you couldn't go out.

But to be honest, I was sick at my premiere, which was so...

No, really?

Yeah.

That sucks.

That's such bad timing.

But everyone was, I mean, it was not so fun premiere because it was COVID time and it was only the team.

It was a cinema with 800 seats.

And I think it was 70 persons invited.

Oh, really?

People were scared to go out maybe.

Yeah.

But the fun thing is that I've been working during COVID.

I worked on many, I mean, The Thin Blue Line and Comedy Queen.

And now when I'm shooting, we said that we all have almost forgotten how hard it was during that time.

You had to wear, what do you call it?

The masks.

The masks and things.

And now we don't do that anymore.

Yeah, I had to buy a COVID test yesterday from my wife and I haven't, I've never bought one.

They were always free last time we used one, which was probably three years ago, maybe.

I mean, we were just very careful, very clean.

Lots of hand sand.

I was probably more than she was.

I think I drove her mad.

You know, washing vegetables, like wiping down, packing.

We did the whole thing and now it all seems absolutely crazy like I ever did that.

And I don't want to think about it now, even though it's out there.

But now they treat it like a cold.

They're like, oh, three days, you can go outside again.

Used to be weeks.

They used to put people in rooms for weeks, you know?

But it's some, I mean, I was sick for five days.

And I think my boyfriend was sick for like the same.

And my kids had fever for one day each.

And that's, and they were fine.

But I don't think I have it now.

I just feel really, I think I'm tired.

It's like a combination of hard work and-

So you're doing a show, can you say what the show is that you're doing or film that you're doing right now?

Are you allowed to say?

It's, I think I told you, it's a secret because it's, it's about something that happened in Sweden 25 years ago.

I can say it's about Nazism, I can say.

So it's about, yeah, it's, and culture.

And it's very, even though it was 25 years ago, it's very much what's going on in Sweden today as well.

The same sort of questions and stuff.

And it's kind of dark, but to be honest, it's also very absurd, the whole drama series.

So I laugh a lot, even though it's really much of a, it's a dark subject, but it's, yeah.

You will see it when it comes out next year, I hope.

I will, absolutely, I will follow.

Well, if you're talking about 25 years ago, that's probably about the last time I saw you.

I know, it's so crazy.

I brought this, I want to show you this because I just moved and I found all my old photo albums and then you were in it.

I have to show you.

Really?

Yeah, it was such a...

It's an old black and white photo from the 20th century.

Yeah, it's with flash, you know, it's...

Yeah, yeah.

I remember your little camera.

I can't find it, but I know I have a picture of you somewhere with your camera.

Because you have it all the time.

I used to bring it, yeah.

To be honest, I was not such a great...

The pictures are very blurry and not so good.

You must have spent a fortune in film because that's pre-digital, right?

I think this was your girlfriend at the time.

Oh, go on.

Here we go.

No, that was my girlfriend.

Yeah, we broke up three years later, I think.

My hair is so ginger.

Why is my hair ginger?

Oh, maybe I was dying my hair then.

That's so weird.

So it was, I have this picture and then I have this coffee pub.

Oh my God.

Oh my God, you got the supervisor.

I remember.

We should mention that we both worked together in coffee pub, in the Strand, was it the Strand?

Yeah.

Yeah, it was the Strand.

Here it says Albemarle Street.

Yeah, that's probably the side street.

It was the Strand.

Yeah, we should mention that.

But did you have a nice talk with Silla?

Yeah, I did.

I did have a nice talk with her.

It was really good.

She, I'm trying to make sure I don't ask you the same questions because we did talk about, I want to say it right.

Thin Blue Line, how do you say it properly?

Thin Blue Line.

Thin Blue Line, yeah.

Which is like, you know, accidentally because of you, knowing you has become easily my favorite TV show of the last five years.

I think it's like, it's just up there.

To me, it's like, you have The Sopranos, you have The Wire, you have Top Boy in England and you have your show in Sweden.

No, it has to be.

They are the best shows.

Absolutely.

And that second season, I told Sia, because it was like the end of season two, which I won't say because I don't think it's been on in the UK yet, left me in a state of emotional turmoil.

I was in my lounge and I thought it was finished and then it wasn't finished and then that ending happened and I was like, fucking hell.

Is it Swedish helvete?

Or is that Danish?

Is that Swedish helvete?

I say that now all the time.

Because your name comes up, which makes me feel kind of connected to it, which is fantastic.

And the intro music, just one of the few shows that I let the music play.

I don't skip it because it sets it up.

In case you were wondering, I'm talking about Tuna Blarlinjan, The Thin Blue Line, which is Sanna's very successful Swedish television program.

It's just so real, the characters.

I mean, I don't even know where to start really, but I just loved, and I can see which ones you direct.

You always sort of direct the first and the last and a few in the middle, don't you?

My job was to do the concepts, like, you know, how it should be directed, how we set the sign, everything, like how the world I created.

I created the Thin Blue Line world.

And Silla wrote it.

So it's called in Sweden, Concepcional Director, I think.

Right.

So I worked with it for a very, very long time.

I made a lot of pilots.

First one pilot and then one more sort of, maybe more a test.

I don't know how many things we did before we got the money to make it actually.

Because they were afraid of not having like a crime or like, you know, this or thriller.

It was drama and it didn't have any cliffhangers or, you know, it was more of a, what sort of TV series is this?

It's like a window on their world.

It feels like it's real and you're just filming some of that day.

Like you can imagine what went before and goes after.

It's not like, okay, oh, there's some actors acting.

It doesn't look like that at all.

It's incredible.

And all the casting and every, yeah.

Was the original cast in the pilot or was it different people?

It was, it was, we didn't have, we had Gizem who plays Leah and we had Amanda who plays Sarah and Oscar who plays Magnus.

But we didn't, we hadn't Pär who plays Jesse.

Yeah, I love Pär.

That was only three we had actually when we made the pilots.

Pretty strong beginning there.

So how long was it between, till we see, when was season one?

It was during COVID.

Was it 2020 then or 21?

When was COVID?

Because we had our premier, like we had some sort of premier party making fire in the snow in Sweden.

It was in January, I remember.

And it couldn't be more than 10 people meeting up.

We were 11.

And we had, it was during winter and we met outside because it was not allowed to meet in inside.

So season two was filmed with the COVID protocol, I guess.

Yeah, of course.

It was filmed last year, season two.

I filmed it last, yeah, in the spring 2022.

So many images and so many kind of emotional connections to the characters in season two.

It built on it for me.

It was obviously the big storyline, which I guess we can just vaguely mention that the warehouse and how that impacts the entire rest of the season and everybody's relationship and with Magnus trying to help the worker in the cafe and sort of making her life even worse somehow.

It's just like all of it is just, and are they going to get together?

And then, oh, what's his name?

Khalid.

Khalid coming in as the kind of like the good guy.

And then he's like the social media, hey, you know, everyone's like all the kids like him.

And then even he gets pissed off and it all goes a bit wrong.

You see, it's just like, it's incredible.

You made an incredible world there.

And Silla said you're doing season three as well, which I cannot wait for.

Yeah, I'm not in.

I would have liked to do it, but I was, I also like Gisem actually.

We were both, and Anders, I had another director I was working very close to.

We all felt, okay, should we do it again or not?

And she was very much like, no, I want to die.

Because she didn't want to be, because it's also, to be an actor in a TV series, it was a huge success here.

So she, I think she didn't want to be connected all the time to Lea.

And I got this job, which is a very interesting thing I do now.

So I couldn't make it.

They start shooting in November and it's too close to my, I have to edit my new show.

So it's actually three completely different directors making the third season.

We will be very, I met them and talked about the concept.

So you still have your input to keep it the way it's supposed to be.

Yeah, I mean, because it was a bit sad not to be able to make it again.

But I said to the producers, I could just come and talk about the concept with them.

Since they're kind of new directors, actually, I don't think they've done at least one.

It's very like a fresh one.

And I also feel a bit finished with it.

It's more like coming home to a family to direct it.

It's not like a challenge anymore because I've done it so many times.

But it's going to be...

Silla sent me a script page two days ago, I think, from the new season.

And it was a character that I directed in the first season called Melanie.

The first episode, it's a young girl called Melanie that Sara takes to her home.

Do you remember?

And she's coming back in the third season.

So she sent me a script page.

And then I said, oh no, I get cravings to direct this team.

You can come back for the season five finale, the final episode.

They'll have to get you back.

But I think Silla is kind of...

Silla was not...

It was also with the third season.

It was not supposed to be a third season.

So it was more like when no one of us knew if she wanted to make it again, because she was very fed up in the end of seconds.

Tired, I would say.

She produced so many scripts, so many episodes.

So I think she was just tired.

And then she got a new idea, and then she got her lust back, I guess.

And then...

I have noticed that with Swedish and Danish shows as well, a bit like the British model of two, three seasons and finish.

It's not like the American thing of just keep it going for ten years.

You just do quality and end it.

But at the same time, I know Silla said she could go on with it forever, because you can use reality and she can find stories just by reading the paper for new things to put in the show.

But it's also heavy work for her to write so many.

I think she's doing it on her own this time.

The first two seasons, she used other scriptwriters to write, she always wrote everything in the end herself, I would say, but she used scriptwriters to start working with episodes.

So it's much of Silla in it.

Yeah, I asked her quite a few questions.

I felt like I was annoying her at one point.

I don't think I had any idea that I would be a director when I was in London.

I was 19, 20, but I actually wanted to be an actress.

And I went to, I think it was called RADA Royal.

They had some sort of courses that I went to.

So I did some acting courses when I lived in London.

And that is something, it's fun, because I had a teacher and he learned me not to be in the moment was much of his work.

And I used some of his, some of the things I learned from him, I actually use in rehearsals nowadays with my actors.

So I think I had, I started to, I mean, I grew up, I became an adult in London and then I came back to Sweden and I failed being an actress, I would say.

It didn't go very well.

What happened?

I mean, we have theatre schools here, like, and I didn't get in, basically, and I didn't feel like trying so many.

I think I tried two times and then I felt like, okay, I'm too nervous doing this and I can't handle the, I just get too nervous standing in front of a jury, standing in front of an audience.

So then I decided to start working with film instead, actually.

And I was 25 when I started to realize that I wanted to direct.

Then I had already worked with film in different functions.

But when I was 25, I decided, okay, I want to become a director.

That's so interesting to me because when you're in London, you have a camera and you're behind the camera and you're seeing things all the time.

And you were kind of already doing it without knowing it, I guess.

Yeah, I guess so.

And I think it was easy at that point in 90, when I was in 97, 98, there was not many female directors.

So I think it was more easy to think about, okay, what should I do?

I want to work with theater or film.

Then you saw a lot of female actors, but you didn't see, I didn't see many female directors.

So I think it's very much about that actually.

And role models that I didn't really have any role models.

There was this woman, she came in, I remember she was Greek, that's all I remember.

She kept telling me that I was making the coffee wrong, and I was like, fucking hell, I've been here for like a year, I know what I'm doing, right?

She just kept shouting, and she shouted at me in front of a customer.

So I just threw the thing on the floor, went downstairs, got a bag, got a stamp, stamped up loads of loyalty cards, and I gave them to all the homeless on the Strand every day, and then they would just go in there and get me massive coffees, and it was wet, and I could see it was winding her up.

But it was really funny, because like, when we worked there, I don't know if you remember, there's a theater opposite, yeah?

Yeah, I remember.

Was Chicago one?

I think Chicago might have just gone in there.

What was on, it was about to go in, and I ended up working on that show.

So I ended up working on the other side of the road, like three years later on that musical.

So it was like a complete turnaround.

I remember having a nice time there.

I always think of it as one of my favorite times, because I just remember chatting to everyone.

Me and you would just talk all day, and that was it.

And you'd make coffee, but you don't remember the working really.

No, I remember you.

I remember the people working there, and I remember the annoying music that we had to play.

Classical music in the mornings, and then some jazz record in the evening.

And it was the same every day.

Yeah, well, they had this funny machine that played tapes at a certain speed.

I don't know if you remember.

So you couldn't put your own music in.

So they had a cassette deck, but the speed of the cassette was different to normal tapes.

If you put your tape in, it would be like...

So I hacked it.

I don't know if you remember, but in the evenings, I had a cable that I made a thing that would actually play CDs, and then I'd play different music in the evening shifts.

People used to come in and go, oh, this is kind of cool.

And I got caught and I got reprimanded.

Yeah, of course.

From the mystery customer.

Oh, we went in and he wasn't playing Beethoven.

No, I also remember.

I actually worked in cafes during my film school time as an extra, and it's just kind of a nice work.

Some of the nicest work I've had.

Coffee shops, delivering pizzas, things like that.

I enjoyed those jobs.

Nothing wrong with them.

Less stress than what you have now.

Definitely.

This is not a podcast about coffee shops.

So in that time between 2005 and what, 15 when your first movie came out, what was that journey like for you?

I was lucky.

I got a job very quickly after school.

It was a TV series for young adults.

And it was like a second school because it was the first time in Sweden.

We actually put it on the web, you know, that we were streaming.

So it was, they were 13, I think, in the TV series and it was more for teenagers.

But it was the first time that it was on the Internet.

So it was a cool thing, you know, and it was 15 minutes, every episode was 15 minutes.

And I made 26 episodes or something.

Yeah, I saw that on your IMDB.

I was like 26 episodes.

Yeah, and it was very cheap.

You know, we didn't have money or anything, but it was like a second school to me.

And I think it was really, really nice to, because when you start working, the difference from being in a school and then start working is the time limit you have, because you have a budget and you have to produce a lot of minutes every day.

And you have to keep up, you know, you want it to be quality, of course, and then you have to find your way of very fast getting there every day, since you have the time pressure every day because of the budget.

So I think that was like a second school to me to make that TV series.

And I got very free hands.

I could do basically, I got a script, but they were very much like, do what you want.

And so I improvised a lot and I changed it, but still, of course, still used the same situation as in the script.

But so it was the first thing I did after school.

And then I had already, like you said, because I was, my first film is, it's about a little sister who finds out that her big sister has anorexia.

And that was from my personal experience that I know you knew from when we worked, I was actually sick when I went to London, but I became healthy during the time in London.

And so I had always thought about this must I think most directors have like one personal story that they really need to make or something.

So I had this story in my head for a long time before I made it.

I think I wrote for six years before the final.

We got all the money.

And I made a short film about it before just to get some sort of, sometimes it's really good to make a short film before you make your debut.

Yeah, get some traction.

Like, I mean, I had of course made a lot of short films, but that short film was like connected to the feature.

And it also got kind of a good, it went on to festivals and to Berlin.

And then I found German co-producers because of that short film who wanted me to make my feature.

So that was my first, like big, yeah, my first, I would say it's, of course my TV series that I made after school was also important, but I would say that is the most important thing.

Feature film, TV series I've done because it's when you have worked so long for something and I think I found my method, how I want to direct, how I want to work very much when I made that film.

Yeah, and it's a personal story and you know, you know what you're trying to achieve and what you're trying to put out there and it's a hit.

And it's a winning award, so it's straight away.

That's amazing.

I'm so happy for you.

It's brilliant.

Thanks.

And then your second movie, which was, I guess it's been out a little while, Your End, but I hear that it's going to be on Viaplay soon, Comedy Queen.

Yeah.

So I'll be able to watch it.

I didn't want to steal it, so I'm waiting to watch it legally.

So can you tell us a little bit about Comedy Queen?

I know it's obviously also won awards.

So let me say this, because I'll say it in the English-y way I can.

Yeah.

So first of all, My Skinny Sister won the, is it Berlin Elle generational best film?

Yeah, the Crystal Bear for the best, yeah.

Yeah, Crystal Bear.

And Comedy Queen also won the Crystal Bear?

Yeah, yeah, it is.

She's on a roll, she's on a roll.

And you also got a Swedish award called the Gullspira Award for Achievements in Children's Cinema.

I hope you've got a big glass cabinet.

Yeah, it's actually here, my prize, you can see it.

The Gullspira, it's like a goat with a golden, some golden, this.

Have you got, you need to make some room for the Oscar.

Yeah, it's coming.

It's coming.

So Comedy Queen, people might not know so much about that movie.

Do you want to tell them a little bit about it?

Yeah, it's about a 30-year-old girl who lost her mother.

But it's from a children's book from the beginning, so I didn't write it myself.

And it's very much like a mixture that I like, this mixture between warmth and also sorrow.

So it has its ups and downs, but like the title says, it's both comedy and tragedy.

And I have a great, great girl who plays the lead.

And she also won the Swedish Best Actors last year.

No, this year, actually.

She won the prize, and she's only 16.

So it's not often a 16-year-old win.

And it was just Best Actor, it's not an age thing.

No, no, no, it was the Best Actress, Sweden, 2022.

Yeah, she won that.

She's doing an amazing job with that role.

So I think without her, it wouldn't have been a film because she's in the picture all the time.

And she's laughing, crying, going through so much stuff.

And so, yeah, watch it together with your kids, I would say, from 11 maybe, and up.

And it's really a family film.

It's more a family film than a children's film.

It's more like, I really like when parents have watched it together with their children.

Okay.

Well, I mean, there are sad things in children's cinema, let's be fair, especially American stuff.

It's just full of dead parents and things.

So a little realism is okay.

Less fantasy.

Yeah, unless you're a 10-year-old, watch it together with you.

Yeah, I will try.

My son likes watching, he really likes swearing.

You know when they hear swearing in something, they're like, you know, and they want to watch it.

There's a lot of comedy stuff that we watch.

They'll be like, they'll walk through and someone will say, fuck this.

What's that?

Can I watch it?

Yeah, it's the same with my job.

A film can be good just by, you know, someone using a swear word.

Yeah, I'm okay with swearing.

I don't want them to see too much violence or too much sex at this point.

They'll be aware of that.

But if someone says, you know, the odd swear word or something, they find it funny.

They love it.

They're all doing it at school anyway.

They're all swearing at school, 100%.

I like your system.

They start too young here.

Before, they're like reading and testing and stuff.

Can you just please let them play?

When you are six, actually, you should just play.

Oh, I read this somewhere, that age is much like a pre puberty, but like a small puberty when you're six, and you're like, everything is a little bit...

And it's a good year to start going to school, actually.

So seven is more like a good year of starting to be more responsible for your learning and...

Do you have forest schools there?

Maybe, yeah, some like outdoors.

In our mind, that's what you do in Sweden, everyone goes to forest school.

No, no.

Because one person said it once.

My girls are very much city girls, I would say.

I mean, my big girls, she goes on her own by, you know, with the tube to her school every day and bus.

I love that.

And you went to Stockholm for the first time in 2018, 17?

Yeah, really, really liked it.

You may have to call me.

Absolutely, I will.

We went there for like my wife's birthday and we landed and she wanted me to go and get some wine to celebrate and all the wine shops were closed because it was past the Sanna.

She was so angry at me.

It's because why have you brought me here?

What do you think will be the top TV show on television in 2050?

All these discussions about AI, what do you say?

I hope it's, if I can wish, it's a very personal story with real actors and real directors behind the camera.

That's my wish.

And I hope that we can make films in 2050.

In Sweden now, culture is under pressure.

They won't get rid of, like a little bit like it's in Britain, that they want the culture to be, not the state, what do you call it?

It's not based on tax.

It's more like a commercial, survive or not survive.

So there's so many discussions right now in Sweden how to support culture or not support culture.

So I'm just happy if someone is making films.

I'm really, I'm very happy, no, TV shows, but TV or film, real people making films, I would say.

That's what you hope for.

So if I asked you that question in Coffee Republic in 1997, what would you be watching on television in 25 years?

I bet you wouldn't say baking shows or people working out if something is a cake.

That's all that's on.

It's baking shows and cooking shows.

I would never have guessed that, never.

No, no, true.

I think in 2050 over here, what they might have is like a game show where the winner gets like health care or something like that.

Yeah, that's true.

Because I could imagine.

Yeah.

You win some teeth.

Okay, what's the funniest thing you ever saw on television?

The thing is that, no, maybe you don't like it, but I'm very fine.

The Office, when it came, I would say it affected, it was a huge impact in Sweden, Ricky Garay and the whole, the way it was shot and the way it was, the acting and everything.

I think a lot of, at least here, comedy, is inspired by the Office still, I would say.

And the humor translated okay?

Because I mean, you guys speak perfect English, so.

I don't remember.

I mean, now this was ages ago, I watched it, but I just said it because it was, I don't know if I've watched, have I watched something really?

I watched Borat with my six-year-old last week.

The first one?

Yeah, because I didn't remember, it was so, it was not okay.

I turned it off after-

The bag of shit.

Ten minutes, I turned it off because it was too much about sex and she didn't understand anything, but she thought it was very funny, because he pooped in a bush in New York.

That was very funny.

She laughed a lot.

Doesn't it open with him kissing his sister and saying she's the number two prostitute in all of Kazakhstan?

Yeah, but I didn't trust it.

I mean, she doesn't understand English now, so I didn't translate things, but then I turned it off after like five minutes.

We laughed so much, both me and her, because some of it was just, you know, funny.

And usually we watch a lot of humor programs, me and my girls, Swedish ones, old ones.

Yeah, we have a nice time watching different silly TV shows, most Swedish, because she doesn't understand English.

Going back to Borat, which is a film, when you mention films, you do this.

But there was a time, I don't know where, was it the Olympics?

I worked on the Olympics in 2012 in London.

And every time you play a national anthem, you would have, for some countries, they didn't care, like France, we'll get it right, America, fine.

But if it was like the Chinese, they would come round and they would check and they would double check and they would check.

And Koreans as well, they would check, you got the right one.

And I think, I'm getting this right, somebody played for Azerbaijan the anthem from Borat, the fake one, and they played it at the Olympics.

I'm pretty sure that happened.

Actually, it was the shooting team from Kazakhstan who were taking part in a championship in Kuwait in 2012, when during the medal ceremony they played the national anthem from Borat.

Hence why everybody was on tenderhooks when we were doing the Olympics, checking those anthems.

Borat is racist now, we can't watch that, can we?

No, it felt old.

To be honest, when I watched the 10 minutes that we watched, the years that has passed since it was made, I would say it's not okay anymore, some of it.

Yeah, there's even jokes, like I watched Red Dwarf, that TV show from England, Red Dwarf, Set in Space.

I was watching one with my son yesterday, and in it, one of the characters was talking about him meeting an underage girl and they called her Jailbait.

Jailbait is a terrible word now.

And he said something like, she wasn't Jailbait, she was 17.

I was like, fucking hell.

And that was from the 90s.

Yeah, mid 90s.

I was like, that's not okay anymore.

The guy's like 35.

Yeah, it's a nightmare.

It's really weird how things change and how things look now.

And I was laughing.

I mean, it's like the current generation finds friends offensive and things like that.

I get it.

I get it.

But also, calm down.

But yeah, I get it.

Time for one more?

Let's try this.

What's the first thing you remember as a kid seeing on television that scared you?

I think ET.

Yeah, I was really scared.

I mean, it was more that I, yeah, I thought it was, he looked really creepy.

But then I was also sad, of course.

Then he was cute.

And then in the end, I bought a doll who looked like ET.

So, I mean, but I think I had nightmares about ET.

And also, but I remember it was a TV show called V.

V, yes, this has come up before, V.

But I was not allowed to watch it.

Maybe I should watch it now because all my classmates, they were allowed to watch it, but I wasn't.

I was so mad with my parents, but I'm much more of a parent that I want my kids to get scared.

Like my 10 year old, she watched Stranger Things when she was nine together with me.

So I don't...

Stranger Things will probably play into ET fear, right?

That's what it is.

The Shed and that's a copy from that, right?

She loves it.

And of course she gets scared, but she's totally obsessed.

Well, I talked about V with someone else and they didn't realize, but you know it's about Nazis, basically.

How was it?

Yeah, if you look at the logo, it's kind of like a line and then two dots.

It's kind of like a half swastika.

And the son tells on the parents, on the grandparents.

The son is like part of the alien.

He becomes like the Hitler youth basically for the aliens.

And then they tell on their own parents and then their parents get sent to a camp.

It's all about that really.

And a lot of it was stolen for like films like Independence Day, things like that with the UFO over every big city, that kind of thing.

That's where it first came from.

V is very pivotal.

It's rubbish now if you look at it.

I never watched it.

I just wanted to watch it.

Oh, you shouldn't.

It's damaging, I think.

I won't watch it.

When you were in London, did you...

Because I can't remember this.

I do have problems remembering how I saw things.

Like if there was a TV show that was on in 97, 98, I didn't have a television.

So how did I see it?

Were you watching TV when you were in London?

No, we didn't.

We didn't have a TV.

I stayed in different flats, of course, moving around.

I remember I lived in Camden for a while.

And we didn't have a TV.

And I don't think I had the TV.

Definitely didn't consume as much TV, of course, that I do now.

But when I lived in London, I watched a lot of films.

I went to that place next to Leicester Square.

It was like a cheap Prince Charles, it was called.

Prince Charles Cinema, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You could go there for four pounds.

It was like two pounds.

And then I went to different cinemas.

So I watched every week.

I watched a lot of films, I remember, in London.

And I went with friends.

I went with friends.

I went on my own.

And that was my concern.

I didn't consume TV.

No, I didn't watch TV, I think, at all.

Do you think, like, because I talk about this with friends often, that, like, the life you had in London, I moved there earlier than you did.

I am from London, but I did have to move back because I moved somewhere else.

But the sort of going to London and living in a flat and having that life and working in a coffee shop and actually surviving, you can't do that now.

It's absolutely impossible because, you know, you lived in Camden.

It would cost you, a kid, if a teenager went to London now, they'd need £10,000 just to start up.

I mean, it's really so out of control.

I do feel very grateful to have been able to live that way in London in those years.

I mean, it was a great time, I'll be honest with you.

Yeah, it was a great time.

I mean, it's not the same anymore with Brexit.

I was sad with Brexit because I remember how I was, it was like a thing you did when you were a teenager.

Either you went to Paris to go to Sorbonne, or you went to London.

And it was very easy to find a job.

It was easy even though you couldn't speak proper English.

It was kind of, it was very easy to find jobs.

And it was very quick that you learned, you know, the culture and the language.

But I remember it was hard work because it was, we actually stayed 10 people, I think, in one flat.

So it was expensive during that time as well, but not, I guess, not as expensive as it is now.

But it was, did we earn four pounds an hour?

I don't know, it was terrible.

I think you became a supervisor.

Did I become assistant manager or something?

We all got titles and I think it just meant that you could have one more sandwich or something.

Because they used to charge, didn't they?

Unless the food was, this is, Coffee Republic are dead now, so we can say whatever we want.

It doesn't exist.

Coffee Republic still exists and they've got 12 locations in the UK.

But they were such tight bastards, like you could have a sandwich for free, but only if it was out of date.

How was it?

Yeah, it was so rude.

But I didn't eat anything because that was unrecognizable.

I remember I had pretzels.

They had pretzel with mustard.

I liked them.

Yeah, the French mustard.

Yeah, that's where I got into that too.

That's incredible.

I used to take those, anything that was out of date and nobody wanted, I had a second job at Pizza Hut.

So I would take all those sandwiches and I would sell them to the drivers for a pound each because they were sick of pizza.

Yeah, so they'd put the Coffee Republic sandwiches through the pizza oven and eat them hot.

Wow, that's crazy.

A little side hustle going.

Well, Sanna, it's been lovely speaking to you.

I know you have to go, but let's stay in contact and good luck in your new TV show.

I look forward to finding out what that is.

Yeah, I'll send you some article.

I can't send you the link.

Hopefully, it will come to UK.

I hope it will be great.

Viaplay is available in the UK now for £3.99 a month.

And you can watch all of your Swedish content, which is Danish and some Norwegian.

So it's pretty good.

It's a pretty good system.

I haven't got it yet, but I'm going to get it.

So thank you very much for coming on Television Times.

It was nice to meet you again after 25 years.

Isn't that mad?

Yes, it's mad, but you're the same.

Well, you look the same too.

You look exactly the same.

Just haven't got the camera.

It's great.

I'm going to stop the recording now.

That was Sanna Lenken there, the Swedish film director who I worked in a coffee shop with back in 1997.

She's going from strength to strength.

I'm really intrigued to see what her new TV show is, what it's all about, and I'm sure I will watch it and get back to you on here next year once I have, because it is bound to be fucking excellent if it's anything like her other work.

And now to today's outro track.

This is a weird one.

Normally I try and put stuff out on here that sounds impressive or is a lot of work.

It's quite serious or whatever.

But I also have this sort of other side to me where I will write serious songs, but then I will write sort of funny, silly songs.

I used to listen to a lot of Madness as a kid.

And I sort of have that circus element to my songs sometimes.

I mean, the intro to this podcast is a song called Nothing Funny About That Clown, which I guess I'll play at some point.

But I always used to do that, almost like a B-side idea in the future that, you know, when I was a kid, there was B-sides.

So I would have the song and then I'd have the silly B-side, it's kind of what madness used to do.

So I've got all these silly songs, they're almost like childlike songs.

This one, though, is called Mr.

Mediocre.

And I remember writing this, I think it was like on a New Year's Day or something, I was very bored.

I'd just got a bass guitar and I started to learn bass properly.

And this is the first song, I think you can hear it, where I'm actually playing it pretty decently.

So I was really into my bass lines.

And yeah, this was just a silly song, I bashed out on my own and then my girlfriend at the time came and sang all over it, a little bit loud, in my opinion.

But you know, it's all there.

And you can really tell it's in an era of Britpop.

So the reason this one's on here is it's from 1997, which is when I was working with Sanna.

So I figured, you know, if I'm talking about working in a coffee shop in 97, I should sort of play a song that I must have written around that time.

And this is one of those.

It's a silly old thing.

It's a bit Britpop.

You can hear the influences.

Mr.

Mediocre, here we go.

You won't hear this anywhere else.

That was Mr.

Mediocre.

I've got fucking tons of songs like that.

Loads of them, just fun, just silly.

Let me know if you want me to put more of those out.

You know, I should make a compilation of them, rerecord them.

They're just funny, right?

I think, listening back to it, that there was an element of the blur-stroke-oasis thing, like Mr.

Mediocre being my sort of comment on oasis' lyrics, maybe being a little bit boring.

And yeah, I think there was something to do with that, and that's why I was doing the blur-sort of esc backing vocals.

Anyway, who knows?

Maybe that's what I meant.

Maybe it's not.

I quite like oasis.

I don't know why I'm saying that.

Noticing to anybody.

Okay, come back next week, and we will have another guest for you.

So until then, please review the show, please follow all the things, all the things, subscribe, explore, blah.

Bye bye.