Paul A. Williams: The Art of Biopics, Thrillers & Real-Life Storytelling

Good afternoon, good morning, good evening, screenrouts, and here we are with another episode of Television Times Podcast.

This week, my guest is the film director, film and TV director, Paul Andrew Williams, who goes by Paul A Williams on IMDb.

He is responsible for one of the best films I saw post lockdown, a film with Neil Muskell, among others, called Bull.

I believe it was number one on Netflix for a little while there.

It was so good.

One of the greatest British revenge films I've ever seen, if not the, and obviously he does loads of other things.

Most recently, the TV show Archie was on ITVX and is shown worldwide.

The Cary Grant for episode biopic, which is phenomenal.

I love that show.

There was such an insight.

I had no idea of his internal story.

It was unbelievable.

He did such a good job in that.

Jason Isaacs and Paul directing it.

I mean, like I say, it's really hard to pin down his style because he does such varied projects.

He did The Walk-in most recently with Stephen Graham.

That was a big drama and loads of movies and other things you'll check out.

But really, really, you need to watch Bull if you haven't seen Bull.

That's a big one.

And he's currently working probably right now as I speak on this new film called The Nest starring Andrea Riseborough and Vanessa Redgrave.

So that will probably be out next year or so.

So keep a lookout for that.

And we touch upon his upcoming TV show Suspect, which is all about the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes in 2004, following the 7-7 bombings on the London Underground and the buses, which led to a lot of tension, which led to that unfortunate event.

So I'm looking forward to seeing how he covers that.

We talk about that right at the beginning of the show.

So now to my life briefly.

Beep beep.

So there's a lot going on.

It's the end of the school year.

It is July the 1st when I'm speaking to you.

This podcast will come out in a few days.

It's election week in the UK, which is very, very exciting.

I don't really follow football or anything like that.

So the Euros mean nothing to me, but I know everyone's excited about that.

And I feel very, very similar about politics.

It is my sport.

I enjoy all the...

Basically what I'm thinking is if I stay up on election night and I watch certain MPs who I cannot stand lose their seat, to me that's like my team scoring a goal.

That is my football.

That's me.

There'll be cheers at 4 a.m.

when Jacob Rees-Mogg fucks off into the sunset and hopefully Rishi Sunak as well.

So bye-bye cunts.

I'm not editing my language there because I think they are absolutely despicable human beings that need to disappear from public life, not from life or the earth.

It's not a thing like that.

The David Tennant thing, get off his case.

He's just trying to say what we all think, but not in a racist way.

Don't say it in a racist way and you'll be fine.

Anyway, tricky subject.

So, yeah, it's an exciting time in that way.

I'm looking forward to the end of the week.

Got some friends coming around for some drinks.

I've befriended a dad from the school run who I really like.

He's a really cool guy and he's religious and I'm not.

And he makes me feel, I don't know, I feel bad about some of the things I've said about religion on here.

Like, you know, I don't really have a lot of time for it, you know, and it's probably because I don't understand it and a lot of what happened as a child in Ireland.

But, you know, there are really nice people that believe in things I don't believe in.

And that's a good thing.

I have to understand that.

And I have to sort of see their perspective and their points of view.

And he makes me feel like I've maybe been a bit too harsh about certain things.

So if I have been on here, I do apologize.

I'm not trying to be anti anything.

I just feel strongly about certain subjects and I don't really want to edit myself.

You know, in the first few sort of episodes of this podcast, I slagged off Disney.

You know, I mean, I stand by that.

I stand by that.

I have children.

I hate it, hate it, but I pay the money every month.

So what's a boy to do?

So yeah, all of that, the end of the school year, my kids are about to be off for a long chunk of time.

I'm going to be in Edinburgh for the summer holidays for most of it, which is kind of weird.

Going to miss them.

I'm going to enjoy the quiet.

Well, is it quiet?

I'm going to be in Edinburgh doing a show.

It's not quiet, but you know what I mean?

And I don't know if I'm fully ready for that.

I don't know if I'm ready to like not see my kids before they go to bed or not see them in the morning.

I see them every day.

I'm basically a stay at home dad.

I see them more than, I've seen my kids more than my dad ever saw me in my entire childhood already.

You know, I just, I don't know how I'm going to deal with that.

I really don't.

It's probably going to be lonely.

It's probably going to be sad.

But I, all guns are blazing towards Edinburgh right now because it's July.

It's a month away.

It's kind of scary because my show's all over the fucking place, got to sort it out.

So I'm working really, really hard on that at the moment.

I have a sort of weekly rundown.

There's a sheet of A4 in front of me called Crunch Week.

And it's got basically every day of this week, the next nine days, I think it looks like, it's just a series of tasks all to be done in order.

And that's the only way I can work.

Just got to get through them one thing at a time.

It's just like doing the Hoover and doing the Washington thing.

Just get through them, write that thing, do that thing.

But occasionally I'll be in bed lately because it's all I'm thinking about.

And an idea will pop into my head, you know?

And then I have to get downstairs, record it, write it down.

And it's going to be 1 a.m., you know?

So things like that, that can be quite stressful at the moment, but I'm very much looking forward to going up there and debuting my show.

Steve Otis Gunn is uncomfortable.

So if you are up there and you want to see, you know, someone really trying to do something they've never done before, get yourself in.

It's nice and cheap.

And it's on every day from the 2nd until the 24th of August at Space UK Surgeons Hall, apart from the 11th, where I will be falling into a heap.

Well, I won't be actually because I've got loads of shows to go and see.

So there we are.

Okay, and now back to my guests.

This is the great Paul A Williams, film director extraordinaire.

If you haven't seen Bull, watch Bull.

I can't tell you enough.

Watch Bull, fantastic film.

It's on Netflix.

And also check out, if you can, Archie, the four-part Cary Grant biopic.

It's fantastic.

I implore you all to watch both of those at least and look out for the next and upcoming projects he has out soon.

So this is me talking to the very talented film director, Paul Andrew Williams.

Welcome to Television Times.

A weekly podcast with your host me, Stingotis Gunn.

We'll be discussing television in all its glorious forms.

From my childhood, your childhood, the last ten years, even what's on right now.

So join me as I talk to people you do know and people you don't about what scared them, what inspired them and what made them laugh and cry here on Television Times.

It's such a weird thing, the origins of Skype.

It's like having an interview, like for a job or on-

Yeah, I know.

Zoom or something.

It's just painful.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, just, yeah.

Yeah, but, yeah, oh, it's about, yeah, I know.

What is it, what is the name, Norman Collier?

Norman Collier, that guy.

Yeah, I remember him.

There you go, now we're on the same way, though.

He used to go-

Yeah, I remember him, all the greats.

But anyway, we're here to talk about you, not to talk about other people.

So Paul, I've got a friend, Andrew Stephen, who was an extra in your new thing, Suspect.

Not to go straight into the Jean Charles de Menezes situation, but I'm really sort of, I'm really looking forward to that one for a number of reasons.

I think it was, funnily enough, politically, Labour government, I remember where I was when that happened, I was on my motorbike going through the centre of London.

There was just fucking police vans flying all over Whitehall.

I went down Whitehall and they pulled this guy over and they pulled a massive machine gun out and put it to his head, like in the street, which I'd never seen before.

This was all that morning and I thought, oh, something is going on.

And then I drove down to Putney and when I got there, that had happened.

And it was a really tense time, wasn't it?

And I remember following the case a lot and I even wrote a song about it called Hotel 3, which was based on, I think, the code name of the copper who gave the nod on the tube train.

And yeah, it was just an awful time.

And I'm just really, really kind of, I wouldn't say excited, but I'm interested to see how you've done that, how you've portrayed that intense, horrible period of time in the old sort of darker days of new labor and all the stress after 7-7.

So, when's that coming out?

Is it soon?

I don't think it's gonna come out till next year.

I mean, the thing is, it's such a subject because I think with something like that, you can have opinions on what people did and people who shot John Charles, people who may or may not have ordered the shooting of John Charles.

It's easy to have an opinion of it and then sort of you go a bit deeper into it, not necessarily into the facts, but go into the state of people's minds during that time.

Gotcha, yeah.

And you sort of go into the mind, you try all your missing parts to do it properly, but you go into the idea of it's very difficult for us to comprehend what it would be like in any of the moments that led up to that event because we don't live that life.

We have no idea of we spend most of our time, fortunately, never having to consider life or death in immediacy, and then the life and death of people around us in immediate moments.

Obviously, people are trained and so on and so on, but this is not to lay support for or against anyone involved in that whole thing, but I think that it's really easy for all of us, including me, to have a very moral hindsight opinion.

I think what happens afterwards when you get lying and things like that, that's a whole different story.

But I think you have to look at everyone individually to understand why it is that people made certain decisions.

The fear and the tension around the time after what had happened, everyone was on edge and expecting another one.

Yeah, if we think about it, we'd had, I was like you, I was in London when it happened.

When the first bombs hit on the seventh, and I remember what happened afterwards, we'd not experienced it.

No.

You know, there'd been people who'd experienced the IRA.

No one had really experienced suicide bombers in this country.

The no warning bombs was a new thing.

Yeah, true.

I can see how it was a scary time, man, for people.

But I do also think, you know, we're lucky because we don't have to make those decisions.

Yeah.

And, you know, decisions that we make are very rarely gonna have the consequences that other people who yet are paid to do that and are trained to do that, for sure.

It's just never as black and white as it would seem.

Afterwards is a different story.

So you take it from a sort of human neutral standpoint, I'm guessing.

When you're doing something, a true story, and I've done too many, probably.

You like a true story, I've seen that.

I mean, in a way I do because I think it's really interesting because it's always very easy to sort of come at a true story with an opinion or the opinion of the outcome in mind.

That make sense?

Yeah, yeah.

Where in reality, things are a lot different and I think you have to go at it completely neutral because when you're doing a show about terrorists, for example, and there are terrorists involved, the terrorists don't think they're terrorists.

So when I'm filming those guys, I have to film and work with those characters as if they are doing what they really believe is right.

You know?

And so then you have to look at them with this sort of in a different way.

I can't look at them like I might look at them because that's not who they are.

True.

Yeah, I mean, terrorists don't consider themselves terrorists, do they?

They consider themselves freedom fighters or it's always, you know, from our perspective, we've all been sort of told that our side is good and their side is bad in the current situation.

One side is terrorist, one side is the ally, you know?

So it's like, it doesn't really wash that.

Obviously you've done a lot of what would be called true crime dramas, but also with the Cary Grant story, which I'm watching now, Archie.

My God, I mean, I lived in Bristol for a while, so I sort of knew, I knew a bit about him.

I've always known his name.

I knew he wasn't American, you know, all that stuff.

But that first episode, me and my wife were sitting there going, fucking hell, that's a bad childhood.

I had a pretty rough childhood, but that is rough, man.

And also like the age he lived through, you know that kind of, what is he, born around 1900, I'm assuming?

Yeah, about 1907.

Right, so, and then he lives until he gets all the way to sort of the 80s, late 80s, doing those speaking tours.

And you just think the things he's seen, the life he led that period, people who lived through that period always amaze me because he's sitting there in that theater, there's a space shuttle in the sky, you know?

And in the first one, he's in that, the squalor of Bristol, wherever that was, you know, with no heating or, you know, fireplace and like no food and a bad dad.

And I was there for the first bit.

That was clever actually, because what you did there, I actually turned to my wife at one point and go, is the dad a bad guy too?

I can't, maybe he's good, maybe.

And then he does something and then yeah, he's a piece of shit too.

So it was like, you know, that was, that's a hell of a portrayal there, Paul.

My God.

And when he goes to America and just stays, I'm like, oh, thank God, don't go back.

You know, brilliant.

He's an interesting character.

And to be honest, far too complex to portray in that short window of four episodes.

Yeah, he's a product of, like we all are, a product of upbringing.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, he was as much horrible as he was nice.

And like all of us, you know, again, I haven't got a clue what it would like to be thrust into that world of super fame.

He was like the Tom Cruise of the day, you know?

But, you know, it was nice to do something that didn't have loads of murdering.

And it was nice to sort of do something that had different periods and so on and so on.

It was a tough job, but it was a really fun job, actually.

He's good at accents, Jason Isaacs.

He's good at the voices.

He's in a film with a friend of mine playing an Aussie recently, and he is believable.

Yeah, I know.

He's a really good actor.

I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of it.

I've been trying to watch it for a while.

I was just finding the time to watch all these things.

I had no idea it was yours.

I can't tell your stuff because it is really varied.

Like, you're doing stuff about a choir, you're doing a true crime, you're doing Cary Grant.

And even, like, I think you might have been ahead of the curve on the horror films, by the way.

That's a massive genre now.

And you were there, what, 15 years ago doing that.

You're like Blumhouse movies, essentially.

Well, I mean, my film, you know, the thing is, you look at your career, you sort of realize how old you are, which is a bit fucking worrying.

Um, but, you know, you learn, you sort of grow up a lot.

And I think that, you know, when I look back at the old and, you know, obviously made that film London to Brighton.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, the choice to do the cottage next, which I've worked on the cottage for so long, way before London to Brighton even was considered.

Right.

Obviously, in my head, I thought it was absolutely hysterical at the time.

Yeah.

You know, it's definitely fucking, I watch it now and cringe.

Right, not that I watch it now, but last time I saw a bit of it with my son, I watched a bit.

And he was 50, you know, so I'm just looking at it going, fucking shit.

I'm worse critic, though.

I know.

I mean, the thing is, it's because it's silly, because it's a silly film.

Yeah.

Which I recognize.

And, you know, I'm still learning what to do.

I mean, I'm still, you know, obviously you're still learning forever, but that thing had been developed for about a thousand years.

So it had been through so many fucking rewrites.

Whereas it's in, you know, what I feel for me is that a lot of the projects I've, you know, a lot of the projects, certainly the films that I feel most positive about haven't really been developed at all.

Oh, really?

Well, like London to Brighton was like a first draft, Ball was the first draft.

Ball was the first draft?

Jesus.

It had a tiny change, a tiny change midway, but like minuscule and St.

Cherry Tulane, which, you know, under the radar, but I actually really liked that film.

That was again, first draft.

And I just think that sometimes, you know, I've got first drafts of Toilet as well.

Well, do you prefer to, like, that's one of my questions, because you write some films that are directed by others, but you do quite a lot where you, well, you do quite a few where you write and direct.

Do you prefer that, to have a handle on the whole thing?

Of course I write and direct, always.

Yeah, yeah.

Not just because of ego, but I think because it's easier to change things quickly, should the need be to change something.

It's easier with the performers and everything, because you're aware of a lot more, and the reasons for why a lot of things are in there, so you don't have to guess as much.

But in terms of writing for other people, I think it's happened a few times where I've started writing something and someone else is taking it, but where you just have to...

I think you just go, I've written it, and now I don't want to know anything about it, take it away.

Because when you write it and you've got a thing in your head about how you want to do it, and then when you see that it's not that, then that really makes me go, fuck, I just can't watch it.

It's so far removed from what I would have done.

That's your baby, isn't it?

It's hard.

That must be very difficult.

Which is why, look, you know, no two people have the same vision, right?

No matter how in tune you are.

So if I'm directing someone else's writing, I cannot do what they think, what's in their head.

I cannot do that.

I can only do my interpretation of what is on the page.

Of course.

And obviously with influence here and there.

But realistically, I can't make your vision for the show.

I can make my vision based on what you've done.

And I look at that the same way as if you're writing for someone else.

They're not going to do my vision.

So what's the point of me being too involved?

Because he'll never do what I want.

Yeah.

And right, I can have to sit there and go, do that, do that, do that, and that.

So yeah, so you just have to let it go, which obviously can be painful.

If I'm absolutely honest, I don't watch anything I've written.

Going back to Bull, I mean, you're saying that was the first draft, because that was a fantastic film.

I watched it twice, like I watched it on my own in a hotel, and I went home, and I said to my wife, you've got to watch this film.

So we watched it again.

I mean, I love Neil Maskell.

I mean, I love him.

Fucking hell, what a film.

Loved it, man, loved it.

It was the best film of that year.

I just absolutely adored it.

And I hope it isn't offensive to say, it reminded me a lot, not reminded me of, but it gave me the same feeling, but much more brutal, of that Clint Eastwood movie, Power Rider.

You know that one, where he's the ghost that goes into town?

Yeah, I mean, I said that to Neil, and I haven't seen it for a long, long time.

So I couldn't really picture any scenes from that film, other than the fact that he is someone who came back for revenge.

And I don't even know if he watched it.

You know, I enjoy, I love to work with Neil.

There was a sort of energy of like, it was low budget, thinking on your feet, trying to pick stuff up quickly.

And I think that sometimes gives an energy for the show.

Plus, you know, I knew a lot of the actors, because they were my mates who I played football with.

You know, and the thing is, when you're working with a good team, who are relaxed and don't have baggage of, you know, I need this, I need that.

Because there was no green rooms, no, you know, there was a green room maybe here or there, but there was no trailers, there was nothing like that.

It was all really like, you know, we were like a student film.

And we didn't have enough money for loads of locations.

And we were shooting some scenes like that.

And you'd be like, we have 40 minutes to shoot stuff.

There's a scene under the bridge where he finally sees his son.

And I remember, we had literally 40 minutes and it was fire and it was like, you know, it was just a nightmare.

And at the time we were like, we shouldn't be doing that, that was so straight.

And then actually you realize that when you're telling a story, the only thing that really matters is, really, really matters, is if you get the character that you're following or characters doing something that you believe it and you can see it, you know, do you see what I mean?

It's like, you can shoot it all beautifully and have all this choreography and so on and so on.

But essentially, as long as you believe the character doing what he's doing and you can see what he's doing, that's for me, that's really all you need.

And not saying that that should be all you do, but when you're fucking pushing, it's like when we were in Barry Island, we had no time again, we just didn't have any time to do it.

And it literally would be like, okay, so we've got four minutes, what are we gonna do?

We're gonna be real quick, okay, you go there, you go there, you go there, just you go there.

You know, it literally was like that.

And we got it that time, we haven't got time for another go, let's go and do it, you know, it was so quick and no one had ever, you know, touch wood, no one would ever go, God, that scene was really rushed when they watch it.

So how many takes are you doing when you've got to shoot like that?

Just one or two?

Yeah, one or two.

I mean, the thing is, again, with takes and alternatives and all this sort of stuff, the audience never see, if you do 50 takes, the audience doesn't know you've got 49 other versions, right?

So unless those 49 versions are so different, you know, that any one of them would make the film different or any one of them would give a different slant on a character, you know, when we're talking in real life or in real situations, if we're in the moment, a lot of the time is how we say it, it's believable.

You believe it and I can say it in a different variation, but you still believe it.

So my main thing is that like if the character, we, you know, if luckily the actors would know what they're doing and know what they're supposed to be feeling in this moment, then unless they're way off, I mean, not on their mark, not in focus and things like that, then they're giving something that is believable.

So then it's just like, then it becomes just an opinion.

My whole thing is always like, as long as I believe you, you know, I'm happy.

It just all feels very real compared to, I mean, I'm assuming you probably really hate a big glossy Hollywood production where everything is so shiny and clearly a set.

Cause that stuff is just, you know, that's what always puts me off.

If we watch a new show and it's too shiny or everyone's too beautiful, there's too much glitz to it, if you can't stand it.

I agree with you and I'm sort of, and I sort of think, well, the way I look at it, and it's obviously just me, is that what you, as long as you're, you sort of stick to the truth or the world that you're creating, right?

So we're creating for a very cheap, dirty place where no one has any real pride in what they have.

And it's all pretty shit.

But then you look at other, you know, TV shows or films.

I mean, I really love David Fincher's stuff, right?

Now, his stuff is all really glossy and looks really perfect and amazingly shot and so on and so on.

But I'm sort of in that world of his storytelling.

I know I totally buy, you know, I'm totally involved.

So for me, it always depends on what story I'm watching and what kind of show I'm watching.

So, you know, I can watch Fallout, which I absolutely thought was stunning.

Such a weird show.

You know, it was so weird, I was really into it.

I really was like, you know, I could completely get this and I love the production design every night.

And I watched a show recently called Prisoner, Danish show.

Oh, right.

Prisoner, Danish, I'll have to write that.

I love a Danish show.

And, you know, it was really good.

But it was, you know, and it was much more naturalistic.

And I was like, you know, this, it just depends what's, I'm not obviously Fallout and that are very, very different.

But for me, it's all about where you set this world.

Oh, there's someone at my door.

That's very rare.

I'll just be one second.

False alarm, no one there.

They just rang the bell and left.

Typical Royal Mail.

Ah, there we go.

Sorry about that.

That never happens.

No parcel, no nothing.

No parcel, no nothing.

The other day, my wife's biometric residence permit came.

And you know when they send you a picture and they say, it says delivered, and then it shows you where they put it in the door.

Not our door.

So I had to go out in the rain, in my coat, and look for the lime green door that they put it in by mistake.

And I couldn't find it.

So where is it?

I accosted a postman on the street and said, look, I've got this picture.

Can you help me?

Because it's a really important document.

And he said, oh, I haven't even been down this road yet.

And I was like, okay, so what do I do?

40 minutes later, he knocks on the door.

It was him.

He left it in a different street completely miles away.

I would never have found it.

So that was good.

It was very nice of him.

Generally, I won't slag off the post office but I'm not a fan of Bezos, but I sell it to him for a pound.

Just do it.

He's gonna get it anyway.

It's much easier.

Queueing up for a stamp.

Sell it for a quid.

I'll buy it for a pound.

Just give it to anyone.

Sell it for 20.

Boom.

Father-son story, don't you?

There's quite a few of those in your work.

Is that something you are drawn towards, or is it just the standard?

The standard issue.

The standard issue.

Dads.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's, I mean, you know, clearly, there's something going on.

There's something going on about fathers and sons.

Yeah, there is, will always be that, I think.

I mean, when, and then you become a dad, and then you're like, right, how can I fuck this up?

When my son get, my son's 10, and when he gets annoyed at me sometimes, it's already starting, and I can think, oh my God, are we not gonna get on when you're older?

Because I'm doing everything I can so we do, you know?

Overly loving and overly the opposite.

But yeah, I mean, I think it happens.

Yeah, no, that's me, and that's what I do, and that's actually causing its own problems or caused its own problem.

I mean, we all just have to basically, you know, look, just as long as they're happy, man, don't go shooting people, you know, we'll cross the bridge in the future where he'll list my failures.

But like, I'm thinking with my kid, is this one they're gonna remember when I shouted at them about something that really didn't matter and I didn't even care about anyway?

Yeah, it is weird, isn't it, how you do remember certain events, which at the time, the aggressor might seem really innocuous, but have stuck for 40 years.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, my mom does it all the time.

She goes, oh, you've remembered it wrong, or we didn't do that, or you didn't.

I said, listen, I remember, mate, I remember exactly what you said and when you did it.

She once said to me, you'll never be a Stephen, you'll always be a Steve.

I thought it was the most awful thing.

You could say to someone, like, as if I'm not cool, because I've got the name you gave me?

I mean, what are you even saying?

You'll never be a Stephen.

No, you'll always be a Stephen, you'll never be a Steve.

Like Steve was somehow cooler, which I've taken ever since.

Because Stephen was a horrid name, but she was like...

Stephen!

Yeah, you get it when you're in trouble.

It's your in trouble name, isn't it?

But it's making a comeback.

There's lots of Stevens.

There's Stephen Bartlett, there's another one.

There's Stephen, who's a manganese.

Stephen Seagal.

Not a great Stephen.

I think he's a stephen.

Come on, look at him.

Well, he's over there.

I've never seen anyone fight so skillfully at such a large weight.

All I know is in Russia, they got a lot of sharpies because they're all on his fucking head.

I don't really understand what's going on there.

It's so weird.

When you watch him move, you can see him every now and again.

And he literally, he's a little one man army.

You can send in hordes of people and he literally has the power to fling them away.

I'm fucking amazed.

Have you ever seen Under Siege 2, the one that's on a train and they've all got these laptops.

They're the size of like, you know, picnic baskets.

And they open them all up and they're somehow controlling nuclear weapons.

It's ridiculous.

It's unbelievably crazy.

If you look, there's a really good book called Last Action Heroes, which is about the 80s to 90s sort of rise of people like Seagal and Dolph Lundgren and Arnie and so though.

And it just goes to show what an absolute bellend he was.

Really?

Stephen Seagal.

Oh, excellent.

I mean, I've had loads of stories.

What a bellend.

I was in America.

My son was about one.

My wife took him to the shops, the mall, as they say, and she came back.

She goes, you'll never guess who touched our son's head.

What do you mean, who touched our son's head?

Yeah, like a really famous guy walked by and he touched his head.

He goes, hey, little fella, because I have no idea.

She went, Stephen Seagal.

I was like, Stephen Seagal touched my son.

I didn't like that.

Yeah, basically, if you say it, if you sort of shorten it down to that brief statement, Stephen Seagal touched my child.

It's some cancelling.

It's a great story.

So your next movie, can we talk about your next movie, The Nest, or you want to keep that under wraps?

Do you want to talk about it?

Yeah, I mean, I can talk a bit about it.

Obviously, I haven't shot it yet, so it just could be total garbage.

So what is the premise?

And we know who's in it, right?

Andrea Riseborough and Vanessa Redgrave.

So that's a hell of a cast we've got there.

There's pretty much a two-hander.

Basically, without giving too much away, you could say that they were two forgotten members of society for different reasons, who live next door to each other, form some kind of relationship, which they both need for various reasons.

And the fact that the outcome of how people who've been left alone, what happens, how that sort of manifests itself, it's nerve-racking.

I'm nervous about it.

It's a very quick shoot, it's only a four-week shoot.

Oh.

And Bull was only three weeks, and we had loads of locations, whereas this, it's gonna be a tough one.

It's gonna be, I'm sort of seeing it being hard, which is fine because it's sort of quite a serious film, if you like, a serious and, you know, it's gonna be a hard shoot, I think.

Is it a different genre for you?

No, really, I mean, I'm not very good at like pinpointing genre and what kind of genre things are.

You know, people would always, like what, you know, when Paul was coming out, what is it?

Is it a gangster thriller?

Is it a horror?

Is it, I don't know, man, I just see it as a little story between these two, this character trying to, you know, find his key.

Yeah, I think it's listed as a crime thriller.

I mean, the thing is, is once I've made it, once a viewer's watching it, I'm like, you decide, but, so, yeah, so again, this one has always been like a psychological thriller.

It is, it is, I'm like, for me, it's just...

It's a film.

You know, a story about these three characters.

You know, what genre it is, it's for the sales agents, really.

I was going to talk about The Walk-in, but I haven't seen it yet.

I really want to see it, so I'm not going to talk about something I haven't seen, that would be silly.

I'm looking forward to that.

Stephen Graham, he's in everything, isn't he?

He's in everything, Stephen.

There's another Stephen.

See, they're everywhere.

He'd cringe if he said that.

Well, if I said he's in everything.

Yeah, because he doesn't want to.

He's just having a moment, isn't he?

The thing is, without a doubt, I wouldn't want to say the best, because that's what I don't want anyone else to feel, I don't think they're the best, but I think he is one of the best actors I've ever worked with.

Wow.

He's an incredibly gifted and instinctive actor.

He's very, very, very good.

I love him in everything I've seen him in.

I mean, he just gets better and better and better.

What was, I forgot, I've fucking blanked on the name of it, the restaurant one, the one that's all one take.

Boiling Point.

Boiling Point, oh my God, that.

I had to watch that twice.

I don't know how they did that.

I'm just looking at it going, so someone was standing behind that door waiting with that bowl.

Was there stuff going on all the time, or were they waiting to go?

I couldn't work it out, he was mad.

He's a, you know, basically, Phil Barentini, fair play to him.

He's obviously a really good director, very good director and a really nice guy, which means naturally, I want him to fail miserably in everything we do.

But he's just not going to do that.

No, he's a really nice guy.

Totally deserves it all.

Yeah, I'd imagine that'd be very stressful to shoot.

Yeah, of course it is.

It's like fucking building the biggest Domino rally.

What is a TV show that you feel does not get the credit it deserves?

Oh, that's a good one, isn't it?

Does not get the credit it deserves.

I was about to say the Doctors Joe Pasquale episode, but no.

No, I'll tell you what, one show that I watched, which I thought was amazing, that I didn't see anywhere and it's sort of quite off the radar, and that's another Danish show actually called An Investigation, which I thought was just exceptional.

Gamora.

I've not seen Gamora, it's on the list, the Italian.

Yeah, again, it's a superb show.

That's a whole world to get into.

A lot of people have said that's a great replacement for like If You're Mr.

Sopranos, which I did re-watch not that long ago.

But, so The Investigation, is that the one where they never show just from the police's perspective?

They never even mention the killer, they never, by name.

Or I don't think they do, you never see him.

You never see him.

Do you watch a lot of Danish stuff?

I love Danish and Swedish TV, it's one of my favorites.

It's very good, just very well, you know, it's made for people who want to think a little bit.

We learned on this one.

Okay, what popular, oh, you don't like genres, maybe this one.

If you want genres, go for it, man.

What popular genre of TV are you most surprised by?

I'm not surprised by anything, because, I mean that, because there's so much fucking channels, so many channels of stuff.

When I went to America and I saw religious channels, I was surprised by that, because I was literally like, thinking, this is almost, it was so, so weird.

It was literally like having a show where the Pied Piper plays a tune.

I just could not get, I could not believe it that there was a channel for that.

And I couldn't believe it that there actually were people who sent in money.

Yeah, that really surprised me.

And then when you realize then that those people make up laws, I'm like, oh Jesus.

Yeah, but it's just, I just don't get it.

But that saying that, if someone has genuine faith, I do envy that also.

Yeah, me too.

I don't have that.

You can't fake genuine faith.

Yeah, I really hope I'm wrong.

I hope I'm wrong about everything, but I don't think I am.

And the thing is, we're never gonna know who's right.

No, never.

Because the thing is, if you're wrong, when you die and if there's nothing after that, there's no one to fucking go, you're not gonna go, oh shit, it's true, I'm dead.

You just don't do that to me.

Unless like the rapture happens and it actually does occur and the sky's open, I'll be like, oh wow, fuck, I was really wrong about this.

I'll be like, I'm really sorry, man, you were right.

But I bow down.

Exactly.

Well, that is quite the place to end.

Thanks for coming on and chatting.

I really love to chat to you about your movies and your TV.

And I hope Suspect does well.

I'll be following that.

Thanks, Paul.

Thanks for coming on.

It's a pleasure.

Thank you very much.

Thanks, Paul.

That was Paul A Williams talking to me here on Television Times Podcast.

That was a good chat.

I enjoyed talking to him.

I really like it when I can watch someone's TV show, as I was with Archie, and then chat to them the next morning about what I watched.

It's kind of wild.

That's one of the perks of doing a podcast about television, I guess.

Right, and now to today's outro track.

So here's a funny thing.

In 2006, I wrote a song called Hotel 3, basically about the incident in Stockwell Tube station where Jean Charles de Menezes was shot.

It was called Hotel 3, named after one of the police officers, I believe the one that sat on the tube, which gave the nod to the other one to fire the gun.

And basically, I wrote a song about that whole incident.

And here I am talking to the man who basically is making the dramatization of that event.

So how can I not put that song at the end of this podcast?

So this is the remix version.

It's called The Dark Mix, which I kind of like the sound of.

So this is Hotel 3 Dark Mix from the album We Are Animals that I made in Japan in 2006.

Well, that was Hotel 3, a song I wrote after the horrific incident in London on the underground in 2005.

Well, I hope you enjoyed my chat with Paul A Williams.

That was a good one.

Come back next week, we'll have another great guest for you.

And I guess I will be talking to you from a different time after the election.

Now, I hope we all get who we want, unless, of course, you want more of the same.

Okay, speak to you soon.

Bye bye for now.