Joe Thomas: From 'The Inbetweeners' to 'Taskmaster' and the Worried Face of Stand-Up

Good afternoon, good morning, good evening, screenwrestles, and welcome to Television Times podcast.

It's back.

Yes, I'm back here in front of a microphone, knowing not how to do it properly.

Hear my words.

I have no idea what I'm saying.

I've got a bit of a cold as well.

I was hoping to sort of get over it before I got this mic on.

But it's been a long time, hasn't it?

February, February the 4th, am I right?

Something like that before we decided to take a break.

It was supposed to be two months and it ended up being a lot longer.

Now, the reasons for that are many.

I want to do a full rebrand before season 4.

You think I'd do it before, wouldn't you?

Also, I don't know why I was delaying it, but we didn't have a website.

I need to make a website, do the whole thing.

So we've got that all up and running with lots of connections, lots of SEO, optimization, search engine optimization.

I guess you don't say the O twice, right?

And I went on holiday with my family to Budapest, which is really nice.

And my wife's parents came to that and that was good with the kids.

And there's been a lot going on.

We've recently got a car, never had a car since we've been together.

I'm not a driver.

My wife is, there's a lot going on.

Easter, children off all the live long day.

We took our kids out of school for a couple of weeks before Easter.

And then when we got back to the Easter holidays began.

So yeah, that was a long time.

And then for some reason, in May this month, there's quite a lot of time off school and bank holidays and teacher training days and stuff like that.

So I think something like my kids haven't done a full week at school, or have only done one or something between March and like June or something.

Anyway, this system that I used to record and talk to you now has not been plugged in for a very long time.

And I'm just trying to kind of get my head around how we do this and you know, all of that.

And I'm not going to edit as much as I used to before.

We want to have good sound sources when we get guests on and there are a lot of face to face ones, I hope, coming up.

Most of the first ones in this season will be remote records.

And I think the funny voices and I think they're gone, right?

I don't think we're going to bring them back.

The old high pitch, I don't think they're coming back.

There was very little of it in season three.

So we'll get rid of it.

Say they're gone.

They're gone.

And also we're not just doing, you know, comedians, famous people, all of that.

I know we ended the last season with Tom Curley, who was a production sound man.

And we do have another sound person coming up in the next few weeks.

And a few more backstagey people are coming up the pipe, down the pipe, up the pipe.

What's the wording?

And some actors, some comedians, the usual sort of mixture.

But we are going to try and get a bit more backstage, a bit more behind the scenes people on television and film, especially from America, hopefully on some big shows.

Right, let's get to our guest.

Now today's guest, it's a great start to season four.

It really is.

I met this guest in Edinburgh last year where he was doing his solo show.

And it was very funny and it was great.

And he wanted to come on to the pod then, but we sort of had to delay it for various reasons.

And we ended up doing it over the interweb.

Today's guest is Joe Thomas.

Now, you know Joe Thomas for playing Simon in The Inbetweeners in the TV shows and the two films.

He was also in Fresh Meat.

He was in White Gold.

He was also in that film festival, which was very, very funny.

And of course he was on Taskmaster in one of the great seasons.

And the task that he really beat Alex Horn on in the sort of train station area, that's one of my favorite tasks of all time.

And we touch upon that ever so slightly.

So anyway, without further ado, let's get to it.

Let's get to my guest.

This is me talking to the wonderful Joe Thomas.

Calling Mr.

Joe Thomas to the stage.

Thank you.

Roll up, roll up and welcome to another edition of Television Times with your host me, Steve Otis Gunn, where I'll be talking to someone you do know or someone you don't.

It might be funny, but it might not be.

But it's always worth tuning in for.

So here we go with another episode of Television Times.

Thanks for doing this, Joe.

No problem.

No problem at all.

Are you well?

Are you good?

I'm all good.

I'm all good.

Nice to meet you again, even though I only met you very briefly at the worst possible time I could probably bump into you.

Well, for no fringes, really, I find the fringe so stressful.

I mean, I find it hard to like go and watch shows and do a show at the same time.

I don't know why, but it's just kind of different parts of my brain, I think.

I think the idea that you kind of go and perform a show and then you kind of hit a load of other shows.

I just never I never really know.

Yeah, to me, it is like it is like doing my exams.

So after I've done my exam, I just want to get the fuck away from the room that I did the exam in.

I don't want to kind of go and watch other people do their exams.

But I mean, I suppose it was like I shouldn't go to festivals, but No, maybe not.

Especially if you went to see someone in your room after you've been in your room, that would be.

Yeah, I think I actually didn't do that this year.

I know that was that was a thing that, you know, I definitely you always used to do that when I went there as a student, you'd always go and watch the shows kind of in and around you.

Yeah, no, I saw a I saw a random load of stuff, but I was also staying in Glasgow, which.

Oh, were you?

Right.

Yeah.

So, a bit of a trek.

Yeah, it was it was all a bit random, to be honest.

But well, your show was great.

I enjoyed your show.

Your show was fabulous.

Well, thank you very much.

Thank you.

I sat in the front row.

Did you?

Oh my god.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I should have.

I'm hopeless at just, I mean, give me too much weight here, but I'm really bad looking at the audience.

No, you do give that impression of like, yeah, it's strange to see you as a stand up as well, because I didn't know you actually did that until very recently.

Well, I've only just started.

I've only just started.

Actually, I've been doing it quite a long time, but I am in kind of Joe years.

I've only been doing it like a week.

It's a very endearing performance.

I don't mean this in a bad way, because I say this to some comedians, and I feel, do they actually get annoyed when I say this?

But I enjoyed the hour or however long it was, but I don't remember anything about the material.

I just had a lovely time, it was really funny.

I left, but I can't pick out any particular jokes, but I just had a really good time.

I know, but I mean, I think it's funny with stand up, because I think sometimes there's pressure to kind of deliver some big message and like you kind of build this, particularly if you're doing an hour.

I think we should do the Edinburgh show.

Yeah.

There's a kind of, there's lots of people who have built it around a kind of-

Like a concept of some kind.

Yeah, a concept or like there's something, I think there's an idea, I think there's a thing with Edinburgh that it's like, oh, it's a chance for the stand up comedian to actually get a bit serious and to talk about fatherhood.

And I mean, I just, I can't, I think I'm probably too serious anyway, and I don't, but I mean, so I was aware when I started it, I was like, well, I don't really know what I'm really talking about.

I think also, I think comedy is, comedy is one of those things that like, if you're a funny person, you are basically funny while you're doing something else.

Funny isn't the destination, it's like the sights you see on your way to the destination, if that makes sense.

So I think that trying to kind of begin with a sort of, well, this is what I want to say, is often kind of, it doesn't feel like the same as trying to be funny, if you know what I mean.

I think comedy is odd.

I think you kind of, I suppose my kind of working theory of how you can try and make yourself be funny is sort of make your brain think that you're trying to convince people of something.

I don't think it really matters what it is, but I sort of think that being funny is just the best of the various ways in which you can be convincing.

I think if you're trying to, and so, I mean, for me, it's that I find that I'm funny when I'm trying to make a point, I suppose, but the trouble is, is that actually, often the point is fairly ridiculous or unimportant.

So my point will be like, why is it that on Great British menu, they don't take the vegan course seriously enough?

So, but like, and I think I'm quite funny when I make that point, but like, none of these points are serious enough to build a show around.

So there's a kind of paradox.

You need to, you need to be making a point, but there isn't a point that's serious enough to say, oh, this is my great point that I want to make.

Like, I'm not, I'm not like Lusa.

I'm not like, oh, I've made it.

I've come to a huge breakthrough.

And I mean, I think that most people are able to be funny when they're trying to convince people of something else.

But it's alighting on the thing that you are trying to convince people of.

That is the kind of, that's the odd thing, I think.

Do you feel like you're a comedic actor pretending to be a stand up when you're doing stand up?

Yeah, I mean, I suppose, I think it's always weird with comedy because it's right on the boundary between lots of different things all the time, I think.

Like, I remember, I mean, when I started doing comedy, basically when I was at university, I did a bit of schoolwork, did a bit of university.

And, and essentially there were people at university who acted, they were actors.

And then there were people who were kind of writing things but the comedy club was basically for people who wrote and performed their own material.

So are you a writer or are you a performer?

It's not really clear.

You're not, you're not really an actor because you can only do your own material.

But at the same time, you're not a writer because you don't write material and then give it to somebody else.

You're a very, I mean, I always think like a stand up comedian is like, are they an actor or are they a writer?

Well, I mean, I'd say it's absolutely the same thing all at once.

I mean, it's like when you're talking, I'm talking now, am I acting or am I writing?

I'm doing, it's all happening at the same time.

It's a, it's a behavior.

I mean, it's a kind of, it's a, it's a funny behavior in which part of the behavior is what you're saying and part of the behavior is what you're doing.

And it's all kind of bound into one.

But I think in terms of a career, it's not always clear exactly where that sort of sits.

Because obviously after The Inbetweeners, we were all perceived as actors because we hadn't written The Inbetweeners.

But actually you're like, well, I'm really an actor.

So you didn't consider yourself an actor even after Inbetweeners?

No, no, I didn't.

No, I considered myself a kind of performer or a comedian.

Again, I'm sorry to say this, a comedy actor is not frankly really an actor.

I mean, it's because you're basically, you're doing a kind of, you're serving a different master.

I think that's the best way I'd say it.

I think if you're, if you're interested in comedy, what you're trying to do is be funny and you can't serve another master, which is like, oh, would the character do this?

And like, it's just like, you know, you have, you can't, you can't serve two masters basically.

And I think that that's why comedians always find themselves in this slightly kind of confused space.

Basically, I think people who do comedy are writer performers.

I think that's basically what they are.

And it's not really clear or even necessarily important, which bit comes first.

It's like, do they perform their own material?

Are they performers?

And because they need something to perform, they have to write their material.

Or are they writers?

And because no one else will perform their writing, they have to perform it.

But it's like, what I'm really saying is, I don't feel like at home as an actor, and I don't feel at home as a star.

So you're in between two worlds.

I'm in between two worlds, yeah.

You can kind of see that on stage, but there's something that obviously you know very well that goes for you, which is you have a funny face.

You have to walk on stage.

And before you even say anything, you're funny.

Do you know what I mean?

Oh, that's good.

I mean, that's very helpful.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, that's good.

I mean, I never know what to make of that, because that has been said to me before.

And I'm always like, well, okay.

Because sometimes people say, well, you're funny without trying to be funny.

I'm like, well, fine.

But like, so is like my parents' dog.

I mean, and I wouldn't say that my parents' dog is like, I suppose I'm proud enough to want to feel like I'm controlling it in some way.

And actually, I think sometimes I'm probably just not.

Sometimes there's an awkwardness that you bring and a pause and a look and all of that together.

And obviously, we've seen you on TV.

So we put the whole package together.

We know it's not saying that your jokes don't matter.

Totally.

And I mean, in terms of material, I think when you watch stand up, you can see that material is a very small part of the story in some ways.

I mean, I think that it's a whole behavior.

I think it's a whole kind of, I mean, I always think that talking is an aspect of behavior.

And in a sense, you should be understood as part of behavior, part of physicality, part of, I mean, quite often when you're talking, you're not even really thinking about what you're saying.

And certainly when I was acting, I also very much saw it in that way.

And anyway, that was when it really clicked for me.

Like what, because actors are obsessed with their lines because the lines are how you know how important you are.

Like if you haven't got any lines, you're not important.

And if you've got lines, you're important.

So people think the lines must be important, but I think the lines actually aren't really important in terms of the grammatical meaning of the lines isn't really.

And I think that in a sense, the words are just the thing that you kind of can say while you're doing a type of behavior that's a lot more complex.

And I think sometimes you stand up and say, well, I've got, why is it not going well?

Because I've got really good material.

And it's because, well, it's not really, it's such a small part of, like when you're with a person, if you were having a drink with a person and they were saying stuff that seemed funny, but that seemed out of whack somehow, like someone else was feeding it into their ear or something, like you'd just be like, well, I don't, this doesn't, this isn't right.

This isn't like, I suppose, yeah, behavior is multifaceted.

And you know, if you just wrote down as a kind of transcript, things that people had said, that would be just a very small part of what it was like to hear them or to see them, I would say.

Yeah, it's true.

I mean, I've, when I've done some stand up and I did a show at Edinburgh that was mostly storytelling with some stand up in it.

But I sort of got into it a little bit because I found myself in rooms with people and everybody laughing.

And I thought, oh, really run in this room.

I should be able to do this.

But then when you're absolutely fucking completely different, there's no connection to that whatsoever.

You can be funny in a room.

I think the trick is to make the stand up room feel like the first type of room.

I mean, again, I think so much of it, I think, is like tricking your brain into thinking that it's somewhere else or that something else is happening.

And I mean, there are lots of things about stand up that I find strange, like the idea that you're supposed to talk to the audience, but they're all set in darkness.

I mean, I did a gig the other night where like, where all the other comedians were saying, the room is so light, like it's so it's far too bright.

And actually, I was like, this is much better.

I can see I mean, if you're not if you're supposed to talk to them, why can't you see them?

And if you're not supposed to see them, why are you then expected to talk to them?

I mean, it seems really it seems very, very strange.

It's a weird situation, isn't it?

And I think when you go out on I think when you go out and say part of it is like, there's a bit of your brain that's like, what are we supposed to be doing here?

And I mean, clearly that is what the medium is.

It's somebody on the stage with a microphone looking at a room that to them is dark, but everyone else can see them, but I do find that odd.

And I mean, because I'm quite an introvert anyway, and go into myself quite easily.

I always try and have quite a lot of light on the audience because I think the last thing I need is for my brain to start thinking, oh, there's no one there and you can sort of, because my brain starts trying to take little breaks and stuff.

Do you have fun when you're on stage or is it glad when it's over?

I think I find it thrilling and it's probably something that I'm sort of slightly kind of, I was going to say, I think people say I was slightly addicted to it.

I don't think that's quite right, but it's a place that I kind of want to get to.

Above all, I think I admire it when other people do it, and so I want to do it.

I mean, I think it's kind of as simple as that.

Like it's like seeing somebody who can play the harp, and then just, I want to play the harp.

I mean, it's terrible reason.

So I mean, I'm not doing it because I think I'm good at it, which is bad news for the audience.

I know you say you haven't been in stand up long, but obviously you're in Footlights.

So you were doing some kind of community performance since how long now, 20 years?

Yeah, I was actually, yeah, I mean, I was doing sketches, which I think are very different.

And I mean, when I was in the Footlights, the whole thing was very anti-stand up for various reasons.

I mean, I think we were not able to do it.

So we therefore constructed an ideology in which stand up was shit and bad.

And I mean, our kind of impression of stand up when we were at university was always like, somebody going, oh, what's the deal with-

Seinfeldisms.

Yeah.

Seinfeldisms.

Yeah.

And kind of, but sub Seinfeld.

I mean, kind of like, you know, crap observational comedy and we were like, well, we're clever than that.

I mean, I think really what that is, is that students are very in their head and don't really do observation of their own life very well.

I think you don't really notice when you're a student, you know, your physical surroundings.

And I think if you went to see a young person doing stand up, it's likely to be, or maybe not.

But I mean, certainly when we were doing it, it would have been cerebral and it would have been kind of wordplay and things like that.

And I mean, to some extent, I sort of started doing stand up when I felt like I was at an age where there were things that people would recognize as like stand up worthy material.

So I could be like, oh, I've got a mortgage or like, I mean, you know, like stuff where I was like, whereas when you're when you're a student, you feel like I don't have any of those things in your life.

I think you do actually have things in your life when you're a student.

But like, it hasn't occurred to you that they're things.

Like the fact that you live in kind of college accommodation or something, or that you have to read books or write essays or something.

I think you don't assume that that's what is interesting about you.

You think that you're interested because of your brain and your ideas.

And then when you get to 40, you think, no, not really.

My ideas are bollocks.

I'd be famous by now if my ideas were well.

And so actually, what's interesting about me is, it's just that I'm another kind of lump of a human going around sort of buying sandwiches and sitting on sofas and going to the toilet.

And like, actually, you're all that when you're a student as well.

But you still are, I guess, pretentious enough to think that's not really the thing about you that's significant.

So in a way, you don't really observe your life very well.

I think you're because you're still in a world of ideas.

And I think in general, people don't really want to be told about ideas.

They want to be told about their car and their house and their kids and their relationship.

And that's what I think we're in.

I think people have relatively little patience with kind of cerebral stuff.

And I think the students are basically likely to be quite cerebral.

There's a very famous joke, or it's not really a joke, it's not funny.

But it's like an old fish says to a young fish, hey, how's the water?

And the young fish says, what's water?

And I think it's like, it's that sense of like, you don't, you're probably quite bad at, I don't know.

Nowadays, you'd also say that they're pretty bad at like listening to your body or listening to your emotions.

And I think certainly like when I was at university, I basically sort of taken a decision that because I felt I was clever, that I was very unlikely to be affected by sort of emotions.

Or I just sort of said, well, I don't really, I don't really have emotions because I'm there beneath me.

And then actually at the university, I was often like really quite upset a lot of the time, but I was like, that's weird.

Cause I feel really sad, but I know it's not that I'm upset cause I don't really get that cause I'm clever.

So it might have been, I know you're upset, but I think you need to be able to do all that stuff if you want to do stand up.

I mean, again, I mean, I feel like I speak in cliches all the time, but like there's that thing about like sport doesn't build character reveals it.

And I think stand ups like that, it doesn't build character reveals it like you.

And that's why it's so brutal.

I think trying to write stand up is a bit like a process of kind of nagging yourself where you're like, well, look, what have you actually got to say?

Do you have anything to say?

Like, I mean, I think it's quite, it feels a bit like doing a kind of audit of your personality sometimes.

Yeah.

You have to kind of, you have to be really kind of brutal with yourself.

That's why lots of stand ups appear to be being kind of dark or sort of horribly honest or like too much information.

It's not too much information.

That's the only thing that you can do.

If you're not doing that, you're just not being authentic and nobody would like it.

So that's why there's an appetite for stand up because you're saying the things that require a little bit of self-reflection plus bravery to say.

And other people want that as well.

You can genuinely watch stand up and it makes you feel better about yourself.

The entire reason I'm interested in comedy is because it's an opportunity to encounter another human being and think, I didn't know other people felt like this, but now you do as well.

And that is an enormous good thing that can happen to you as a person is to think, I thought I was having this experience on my own, but now I know that here's another person who's also having it.

And it not only halves the, let's say, suffering you're feeling, but it quarters it and tents it and makes it seem almost nothing and like something that can just be kind of batted away.

And that is really, really nice.

And I suppose that's the nice thing with stand up.

And that can happen, it doesn't have to happen on a grand scale.

It can just happen when you feel like somebody's being sincere with you.

I mean, I think that the quality that I always thought I really liked in stand up was sincerity.

So do you like it when someone sort of, you can see someone nudging someone in the audience again?

That's you, that is.

Yeah, I do like that.

Yeah.

And I mean, I like it.

I mean, I also like it when like a stand up says something really quite weird and then just like one person just really, really gets that.

I mean, I think that's really nice as well.

Any connection is an achievement, I think.

And it's difficult to connect with people.

I suppose I also feel like, in a sense, the world is, I think, full of, I'm sounding like, this is, I'm sounding sort of capturing the right here now, but like the world is full of phonyness.

Like it is full of phony connections and phony authenticity.

Yes.

And I do think that in stand up, there is still an opportunity to maybe encounter an actual piece of genuine human connection, which is a good enough reason for it to exist.

Basically, I want to do it because I want to be involved in that kind of mission to try and make those connections.

Even if I'm crap, like I suppose, I sort of want to be in that army that's trying to do that, even if I'm like the worst soldier in it.

And I also know that like people you meet in comedy, they just tend to be quite nice, I think.

They've all had the shit kicked out of them numerous times and been completely humiliated.

I don't think there's many, I mean, I'm sure there are notable exceptions, but I don't feel like there were gigantic egos in comedy in general.

I think it's quite good for your self-esteem because I think it stops you being a narcissist, but it also stops you thinking that you're worthless.

I mean, before I started doing Stand Up, I had a kind of bitter outsider complex towards it where I was like, oh, I wish I could do that.

I'd be so shit if I did that.

I'd be so crap.

And then the flip side of that is a kind of narcissism, where it's like, and it's because people wouldn't listen, and they wouldn't get me if they did listen.

They'd know I'm a genius because they weren't like that.

And it's kind of like, so it's these horrible two sides of the kind of self-esteem coin, which like both of them are shit.

Like one of them is like, I'm miserable.

I hate myself.

And the other one's like, I'm a genius, really.

And they won't listen.

And then you do a gig and you're like, what happened there is that actually you got up and did it and it was all right.

And some people like your material.

These bits were a bit crap.

But actually the foot bit at the beginning was all right.

And so you end up with instead of thinking like I'm either a one out of 10 or a 10 out of 10, you come off being like, I suppose I'm sort of a seven.

It's like you kind of want people to think, I'm okay.

I did some good stuff.

I probably wasn't the funniest one, but I did do it and I wasn't totally useless.

And a few people really like it.

And it's just kind of, that's a really good place, I think, for a human being self-esteem to be.

I've got a little favor to ask you.

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And if you've got time, leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get them.

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But for now, let's get back to the current episode of Television Times.

So obviously, I've seen you in lots of things recently, like Celebrity Bear Hunt, which I'm counting on.

Yeah.

I don't know what happens to you.

I haven't got, I'm only about three.

Oh, don't worry.

Well, let's just say Bear Grylls isn't going to be getting out of a wheelchair anytime soon.

No, no, it's not.

No, he's fine.

He's fine.

Where was that?

What was that filmed?

Costa Rica.

That must be fun.

It was amazing.

Yeah, it was on the west coast of Costa Rica.

It was amazing.

I mean, I suppose the great thing was to be in Costa Rica, which is amazing.

I mean, it probably, let's be real, without that, I probably was likely to never go there in my life, probably.

I mean, not because I have something against it, but just because it's a long way away.

There's unlikely to be like a sort of, I'm not going to be asked to be like 20 minutes on a Tuesday night and it's in Costa Rica.

If I could travel, I would do 20 minutes on a Tuesday night, but I don't have to obviously leave on a Monday morning.

But that was amazing.

I am a fan of Bill Grylls, actually.

I mean, I like his shows and I was in the Cubs when I was little and he's Chief Scout.

So I was quite like, oh, this is the badges finally paying off and it was cool.

I like doing all the skills and stuff.

He's a bit like you.

He doesn't age.

Doesn't age a day.

He doesn't age.

No, he's just not clear.

I don't know what he's doing.

Is he 45 or is he 38 or is he 52?

I think he's computer animated actually.

I don't think he's, because I could tell, I was putting my arm through it.

There was nothing like, it was a hologram.

It's like ABBA.

It's a hologram.

That's not, he's just a large language model.

Yeah, it was great.

And I really, really liked all the kind of physical challenges.

They were great.

How did you sleep in that big open room?

I would not be able to do that.

Yeah, no, it was pretty, it was pretty difficult.

I mean, it was...

I mean, I find it premier and tricky.

No, I mean, no, that was, I mean, it was quite weird.

It's the sleeping arrangements you'd have for, you know, children who are having a sleepover.

It was just all these adults.

It was all these kind of complex adults.

But it was all right.

I mean, they were, they were, yeah, it was quite weird.

Because I mean, you're around all these other people.

And I mean, you know, let's be clear, you're being filmed.

And I have to say that it is not an intrusive edit.

But, you know, the fact is you are being filmed all the time.

So it's a bit, you're kind of like, I think you find a kind of bandwidth at which you can operate if you know that everything you're saying is being recorded.

I mean, I think you tend to kind of, probably what I would draw from it is that I don't think that a society in which everyone was surveilled would get much done.

Because it's quite hard to kind of take risks conversationally.

So you tend to find that, I think, you know, it's reality television, if we're calling it that, which I suppose we are.

I think there's this sense that like, you'll get this kind of unscripted, unguarded stuff.

But I suppose my observation would be that if people know they're being filmed, they're probably more guarded rather than less guarded, or at least that would be my experience.

So I think that in terms of the interactions between people, the conversations, I think it's a more limited medium than it thinks it is because people are performing.

And I don't mean that in an cast of suspersions as anywhere at all.

How could you not be?

It's interesting.

In the edit, they show like, if, for instance, there was one where you weren't doing the tasks the other people were, when it comes back to the house and you're just sort of all lounging around the people that didn't go, you just think, what have they been doing all day?

Yeah, I know.

Well, yeah, I mean, we did fill the days.

I mean, Christ knows how, looking back.

But I mean, I remember doing quite a lot of skipping and things like that.

I suppose I liked the challenges because I knew what I was supposed to be doing.

And that's always kind of a bonus in life.

And yes, yeah, Stephen was OK.

It was very, very hot.

We didn't have air conditioning.

And I mean, actually, I sort of randomly chose a bed quite close to the door.

Not consciously for this reason, but it was a bit cooler.

So I had a bit of a breeze, so it was all right.

It's funny the shared room thing, because even like when you watch The Apprentice now, they go into the most beautiful house you've ever seen in like Kensington or whatever, and they walk in and they've all got to stay in the same room.

I know it's weird.

I think they want, I mean, yeah, it's an eight bedroom house.

And you'll be staying in one bedroom.

And the others are for the cruise equipment.

But yeah, I suppose they want a kind of boot camp type thing, I suppose.

It's just that sense of like the military, I guess.

Have you been on SAS?

You haven't been on SAS?

No, no.

I mean, that looks quite fun, actually.

A lot of shouting.

I think I'll be all right with that, though.

I'm quite good at sort of, you know.

You're good on the reality shows.

You should, I mean, you're popping up all the time, just because I knew I was speaking to you.

I was like watching Weakest Link Theories again.

Yeah, I've done a lot of stuff, actually.

I didn't sort of set out to do them, but actually I don't mind doing them.

I think I'll be all right on Celebrity SAS.

I mean, I'm quite good at like just kind of being in my own head.

So I think that...

Yeah, you shift into gear, you can see it, it just happens.

Yeah, it's also from a perspective of a viewer that doesn't know you in that way.

I think they're probably thinking, oh, he's not going to be able to do that.

And then you just do it like on the bridge.

No, I think people are quite surprised.

Yeah, I mean, I think I do look worried a lot, but I'm kind of amazed that other people don't look worried.

Like if people are like, oh, what are you worried about?

I'm like, well, are you fucking kidding me?

Everything, everything, everything, everything, everything, everything.

What do you mean?

What are you worried about?

Oh, because everything's fine.

Yeah, I mean, it's just like, I went through a phase when I was very young of, actually not very young, just younger than I am now.

When I was like a teenager, a sort of semi-regular occurrence in my life was people who I literally did not know stopping me on the street to ask me if I was all right, because I looked so worried.

I remember, I remember when I got the vaccine, especially this more recently, they put you in a room for 15 minutes afterwards to check if you're having a nervous reaction.

I was like flared, they were like, something's happening, this guy's in trouble.

There were people running over.

I was like, what is it?

They were like, you're okay.

I was like, no, I'm just thinking.

But yeah, my resting face was confused with anaphylactic shock because I looked like, so I mean, yeah, I do look worried, but I was just thinking, figuring it out.

I think that I went to a fairly intense grammar school where you just had to sort of sort yourself out, basically.

I suppose basically, it was probably one of those classic dysfunctional boys schools where it was like, don't show weakness, go and sort yourself out in private and come back when you're all right because it's annoying if you're here.

So it was kind of like, I think I've got a bit of that.

Like probably me looking all worried.

That's what I do in private.

And then I come back when I look sort of full of beans again.

My dad's very much like it as well.

There are things that my dad has been thinking about where I think it's like one unbroken thought process that's been going on for like 35 years.

And you're like, if you ask him, there's just no point in trying to get in now.

But yeah, I think I am like that.

But then on the other hand, I do think that there's, I don't know.

But that's the funny things about you, like in that sort of, like you have this worried, like you are on Would I Lie to You?

Not that long ago either, right?

The look on your face immediately, I remember thinking at the time, oh, he's going to be a Bob Mortimer in about 10 years, this guy.

Right.

Already it's funny.

Oh, well, that's good.

I'm pleased that it's funny because I can't turn it off.

So yeah, I'm a warrior.

But I honestly, I think people who work in comedy often are warriors.

And I think a lot of comedy in terms of the material is a sense of, I thought that these were the rules, and I've been trying to follow those rules.

But now it seems as though somebody's just completely changed the rules.

And why has that happened?

And why have they not acknowledged that the original set of rules was wrong?

I mean, I think it's funny how many jokes are something along the lines of, I thought, I thought, like, I thought the idea was this.

And now here comes somebody who just seems to be doing this.

So like, which one is it?

That applies to everything what you just said.

That even applies to like people moaning about the size of, you know, shrink flation, the size of digestive biscuits shrinking or whatever it is again.

It's an agreed deal.

We had an agreed deal.

I know.

And I think it's true.

And I mean, I also think that there's, I sometimes, well, actually, no, this is just, this is just, that's a totally wild assertion.

But let's say for me, I was going to make a connection between comedians, you know, liking school and liking education, but probably someone that really didn't.

But I like school and education.

And I think part of my disappointment in life is the failure of the world to be like a school, like the failure for like virtue to be rewarded, vice to be punished, for there to be a curriculum, for there to be exams that you can actually study for and know what it is you're supposed to be doing and have an understanding of where you fell short and have an ability to kind of improve.

And also for there to be something that's relatively unchanging.

So like I think with television, obviously it's not the world that I wanted to work in when I was watching The Office when I was 18.

I mean, it's a completely different industry.

I mean, and so that is different in school as well.

You know, I remember looking at the sixth formers and be like, they're doing their A levels now.

And then when I'm their age, I would do my A levels.

It's the same.

So you like order.

I do like order.

Yeah.

But I mean, how would the world, the world obviously never was ordered.

And obviously like when you're a young person, you're or certainly I was in a very well ordered world.

And I think that the, in essence, I suppose, my certainly my family and many families and my school, they're telling you a sort of benign lie in a sense that like virtue will be rewarded, effort will be rewarded.

And somebody's in charge who's, you know, both good and powerful and just and I don't mean God, I just mean like competent adults.

I don't know why, but I'm thinking of you in like a super drug and get in bad service now.

That's going to annoy you.

Yeah, I know.

Well, it's just funny.

I mean, you just kind of think we'll need to take an exam and be fired.

Yeah, I mean, I suppose it's that sense of like they're being...

Some third party who's kind of making sure the rules are followed and like rule breakers are punished.

An idea that there's some kind of ethical body in charge of everything and basically there isn't.

I think that obviously there isn't.

Basically, I think one of the greatest gifts you can give to another person is consistency.

I think it's very undervalued quality.

But let's say you go and see a therapist.

One of the things the therapist will be is they'll be fucking consistent.

It will be the same time every week.

It will last the same amount of time.

It will be in the same room.

They'll be wearing the same clothes.

It will be the same format.

Actually, it's not just because they're trying to not freak you out.

I think it's like, well, it probably is that, but I think it's an active positive.

Being able to achieve some kind of consistency in your life is an actively positive thing.

I think the outside world provides almost none of it.

And seemingly less and less of it every day.

And I suppose probably that's also the gift that you need to give to your children as a parent, is to basically tell that benign lie that the world is consistent.

It's going to be all right.

And I think of my parents, I suppose my mom told me the world was basically a good place full of beauty.

And my dad sort of told me the world was a just place in which like virtue would get you to the top.

And probably both those things are not true.

So, you're in a TV show called White Gold.

And you were selling windows or PVC?

Was it windows or?

Yeah, windows, yeah.

So, I actually did that job.

You did it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Did you?

Wow.

Some guy would pick me up in East London in Dagenham area where I was living at the time, in a Vauxhall Aster and drive me out to Essex and make me knock on old people's doors and try and sell them.

Oh my God.

Oh my God.

Wow.

And you pretended to do that?

Yeah, I pretended to do that, yeah.

It was, well, it's all based on Damon Beasley's dad, who was a double glazing salesman.

So Damon Beasley, the writer, he is the son of a double glazing salesman in Essex.

That's what you say, that's where you went out to.

Yeah, that's why I did it.

For some reason, it's incredibly specific to Essex.

I don't know why.

I mean, it's not the coldest county in the world, but it definitely needed the most double glazing windows.

And I mean, it was a real boom industry.

And actually, if you go around quite a lot of Essex now, you can see these whole small communities with the white windows in.

And were you a good salesman, by the way?

Oh, I was terrible.

So you're like my character in it.

I would just go to old women and say, you don't want double glazed windows, do you?

Because I felt it was like dirty in some way.

I don't like selling stuff.

I used to have to sell the BHS.

I used to work in BHS, British Home Stores.

We used to have to sell a product called the Gold Card, which was a store credit card.

There was a store credit card.

So it was a useless product actually, because it was not even a good in.

If you wanted a credit card, you could get a credit card.

But here was a credit card that had, I think, a worse interest rate and could only be used in British Home Stores.

So why do you want that?

And also, but the people in charge of selling this Gold Card should have been like the most senior members of.

What annoyed me was that the people who were on the high pay, I was like, well, you fucking sell it.

If you think it's such a good product, you explain to the fucking customers, but instead you're getting these teenagers who are on not very much money an hour to sell this dog shit product.

And the other thing, and no one ever wanted it.

They never wanted it.

They knew what you were doing.

As soon as you started saying, would you be interested in?

They were like, no, no.

And it's not your fault.

You're not the person who decided that this card should exist.

And then even if you had got them to open this credit card by some fucking miracle, the management were still not happy unless you'd also managed to convince the customer to take out this thing called personal payment protection insurance, which was like, just a total bit.

And so you'd have to get into these conversations with these people where you literally had to bring up like their death.

So you had to be like, but if you did get, madam, god forbid, but if you were completely immobilized through a traffic accident and you couldn't work, man, you couldn't work.

And obviously you'd be thinking, what about the gold cards?

So basically you were selling them insurance.

So you were selling them both debt and insurance.

Pointless debt and worthless insurance.

You still get that, though.

If you buy like a toaster from Argos or something, it will say, would you like to add protection to this 20 quid toaster for like nine pounds more?

No, it's ridiculous.

I know, I know.

It's crazy.

Yeah.

So basically you had to get to these incredibly complex conversations about terrible things happening to them.

And how obviously at that point, their first thought would be, oh my God, what about the poor old folks over at BHS?

They might not get their payment this month.

So they had to then sell them insurance.

They had to sell them insurance that brought up the idea of their death or terrible injury and then implied that the main victim would be us, BHS.

And that would they like to give us some even more money so that we wouldn't be out of pocket if they got really hurt.

So it's basically just a terrible conversation.

Like what a conversation that is.

You know how you might die?

Well, the trouble is we might lose money then, but do you want to give us some extra money now?

Why would anyone want this?

Did you get a bonus if you did it?

I was given a box of Maltesers.

I mean, honestly, I was like, this is fucking killed me.

Genuinely, honestly, by far and away, your best bet with these cards was to get the customer on the side and say, look, you can cancel it tomorrow.

Can you just open one, pay on it today, then tomorrow clear it, and then just as a favor to me.

That was by far and away your best.

But you're thinking, what the fuck is this?

I mean, and what annoys me is it is obviously, it is just a con.

It's just trying to get people, the main thing they were hoping was that people would forget that they were paying it.

Like a gym membership or something.

It's like a subscription, isn't it?

So many companies, I think, basically run by getting people to give them a little bit of money every month and then hoping that those people basically forget that they're doing it.

Yeah, I was thinking about this the other day.

I get 99p charge a month for iCloud.

I don't even know what that's for.

No, I know.

I have.

If you get a million people, that's a million quid.

Well, I know.

I just think, I think it's crazy.

I pay Google a bit of money every month.

And I think like, what is it?

Maybe three quid a month.

But I'm like, sorry.

What is that?

I mean, it feels like a tax.

It feels like it feels like they're the king and I have to give them a tax.

But you're thinking like, if you tried to just charge everyone in Britain three pounds a month more in tax, everyone would go fucking mental and say the government was like robbing them.

But imagine what you could do with that.

And people just blithely do it for the reason they're not even aware of.

I haven't asked you any format questions.

I don't think I even will because there'll be no time.

But I'm going to ask you this one.

After Inbetweeners got massive and all of you guys were instantly famous and very recognizable.

I mean, you literally look like yourselves.

There's no disguising that.

How was it like for you dealing with like the fame of that?

Was it instant?

Did you notice a big change?

Were you happy about it?

What did it feel like?

It wasn't instant.

I would say that it took a long time, actually, for it to become a hit.

And actually, at the beginning, I wouldn't accept that anyone was watching it.

Because the first few people who said they'd watched it and liked it, I kept having this phenomenon where I could basically trace them back to one of my parents.

So I feel like a woman would say, I read out the information, I thought you were really good in it.

And then she said that because I work with your mom and I'm like, well, that doesn't count.

What if my mom's asked you to watch it and then come and we're back to zero.

And then, you know, a bloke would be like, yeah, yeah, it's funny because I know Jerry and I would be like, well, that doesn't count either.

Then I remember the first time that there was a guy who liked it.

And I actually couldn't directly trace him back to my parents.

And I was like, oh yeah, okay, that's a, that's a fan.

So once it got big, then it stayed big.

But like it did take a long time.

And I didn't sort of accept that it was big for ages.

So I was like, no, come on.

And then you don't really want to kind of start.

There's not really like another mode you can go into when you think you're in the big show.

You just have to remain yourself.

I think I don't think there's another.

But so yeah, I, I just sort of continued the same.

And I think probably by certainly by series three, when we did a, I remember the channel four did a did an advert for it, like a proper advert, because the advert for series one was just like a clip from the show and just sort of saying like Inbetweeners.

And I remember all the all the supporting artists on it, who were all wearing the the Raj Park school uniform, they made off with the ties because they wanted the ties.

And they said they collected all the ties in at the end of the day and they were like, there are none, so they're all gone.

That was, I suppose, when I thought, oh, this is quite big.

So it sounds like you were kind of almost waiting to be recognized, just a tiny bit.

I mean, I suppose we were, I mean, comedy is just a bit like that.

Like, it just takes a long time to, I mean, I'm like that when I watch comedy.

Like, I think people are quite diffident initially, maybe, with comedy.

They kind of, particularly if lots of people are saying that something's funny, my reaction is often actually to be like, well, yeah, we'll see if it's funny, we'll see, we'll see.

I'll watch it in five years.

Well, like if somebody says, oh yeah, I'll watch it in five years.

I mean, so I sort of eventually watched This Country, which I really love, after it had won like two BAFTAs and like basically they'd stopped making it.

I was like, yes, now I'll have a look at it.

And I watched the first episode of Slow Horses last night.

Yeah, that's good.

I've been on for about five years.

Yeah, I know.

Yeah, it is.

It's so much to watch.

But you don't want to kind of, I think it's like, if someone says, oh, guy's coming around in a minute and he's really funny.

In me, my reaction is to be like, sounds like a dick.

I don't think he's funny.

Like, I don't, so I...

So British.

Yeah, but I mean, there's something quite private about comedy.

I think you want it to feel like it's a kind of outsider-y laugh rather than a kind of everyone laughing at the same thing.

When you're young, you like to have your comedy show that maybe some of your mates don't know about yet and you can tell them about it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

My son's like that.

He's really into comedy.

He's watched a lot of Taskmaster.

Oh, nice work.

He's watched a lot of Taskmaster.

He's only 11.

Shouldn't have.

That's right.

I don't show him the bleep ones.

Fuck it.

It's fine.

No, but I mean, this Taskmaster is...

I mean, I would say probably seems like it's for children.

It seems a bit much to tell children they can't watch something that's built around sort of making friends with a frisbee or something.

Your task, one of the tasks you did, oh my God, it was, yeah, you just reminded me.

It's my favorite task.

And you were brilliant at it.

You know what I'm going to say?

This is the one at the Rail Museum where I was hiding.

Yes, the railway.

I was good at that.

That is my favorite task I've ever seen.

I just wish they'd come up with another one like that.

Well, that was really fun, yeah.

That was really fun.

I mean, when it was good, because it was quite simple.

I never really liked the task where you had to kind of be creative or imaginative in any way.

That one, it was just like evade being seen.

You got right up to Alex.

I did well on that.

I did well.

When I know what I'm supposed to be doing, I'm pretty good.

Yeah.

Yeah, order.

Yeah, it is.

How long is the actual filming?

How long do you spend filming those tasks?

Is it all done in a few days?

Yeah, well, you go to a house and it's quite weird because it's just you and the crew.

Because you film it alone, right?

Because you don't want to see the other contestants doing the task.

Because I think the absolute sort of center of the show is watching other people do a thing that you've done and realizing that they did it in a totally different way.

I think that's the kind of joy of it.

Suddenly seeing, it's like it feels like it's very, very tight thing.

And then suddenly it kind of goes, when you have it opens out and suddenly you have this, so you feel like it's just you in a house.

And it's quite weird because you're kind of just there with all the crew.

So there's no other performers there.

There's no other, you know.

And do you only find out the other contestants when you do the first team task?

Or do you sort of know?

Yeah, you do.

I knew who they were, but I hadn't met them.

And I hadn't met any of them before.

I don't think I had, actually.

So they were out there somewhere.

It's a very, very lovely show.

I remember turning up to do the tasks in the house.

In a way, I think it was actually the first show I'd done that was anything like doing it as myself.

And it was partly because I knew, although I didn't know the other contestants, I knew Alex Horne.

I know Alex and he...

And Greg, obviously.

And Greg, yeah.

But Alex asked me to do it.

And it's so funny, quite a lot of the nicest things I've done in my life, my reaction to being asked to do them is like, fine.

So I was like...

Well, that's the impression you give.

Right.

That is the impression you give.

It's like, I'm not sure if he wants to be here and then he's really good at it.

Well, I think I'm just always worried about...

I'm always very worried about doing things.

And obviously, doing stuff as yourself is quite hard and quite weird.

And I think, although I sort of said I didn't really see myself as an actor, I never really saw myself as anything other than that either.

So I kind of thought, well, I don't know whether I'm going to be any good at this.

But they're very, very friendly and nice.

The people who do the show, they're very sort of gentle with you.

I mean, it feels like doing a peculiar form of therapy in a way.

Like they kind of get you to do these.

I mean, there's a type of therapy where you kind of make a sand pit and arrange things in the sand pit.

I can't remember what it's called, but it genuinely felt a little bit like that.

That sounds like the Tibetan monks when they spend hours doing these incredibly intricate sand pitches and it's like a meditative process.

And then they just destroy it all at the end.

Yes, they do.

Which is unbelievable.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It is like that.

I mean, it's like play therapy, I suppose.

And I think it also does.

It's funny, it does like, this is a bit of a theme of what I keep saying, but it reveals character as well.

You realize that the way that you go about a task is kind of reflective of the way that you are as a person.

And the other thing they do is that it's really nice, is they make it seem like you've been funny in the room.

Because actually, my memories of doing the tasks were like, I just kind of waddled around and kind of scratched my head and sort of went to look for something and then couldn't find it.

And anyway, it was probably the wrong thing.

And then they'd be like, what are you doing, Joe?

I'd be like, I'm trying to find, I wonder whether there was a kind of bit of, like a sort of bit of wood or something like this.

But I don't think there is one.

I don't think that's right anyway.

And then I sort of do something and it would all sort of fizzle out.

And then in the edit, they make it look like you've done something that's kind of quick and incisive and actually quite witty and sort of comments on the way that all the other people have done it.

So they're very nice to you, basically, they make it look like they make it look like you were better than you were, basically.

That's the genius of it as well, because like you say, it does reveal something about you and you get to see what that person is really like.

Well, we're coming to the end of this, because I don't want to keep you too long.

One little thing I found, our birthdays are one day apart.

I'm 27th of October.

Are you 28?

Yeah, I am.

You're a Scorpio.

Yeah, the one thing I hate about it is if you blink and you're in, I don't know about you, because I wake up at 3am with all these thoughts, but it's only a few weeks after and you're in the year of your next age, if you know what I mean.

I know, I know.

You get to January, I'm going to be 40 whatever this year.

I know, I hate it.

I know, I really hate it.

No, you want your birthday at the beginning of the year.

So you can enjoy it.

So you get the whole thing.

Yeah, yeah.

No, you're totally right.

No, I've got that as well.

42 this year.

Yeah, and you can do it immediately, like six weeks after your birthday.

Doesn't have to be that way.

No, you're totally right.

It's so annoying.

I know it is.

Thanks, mom and dad for that.

Wait, can't you wait?

I'll ask you one format question.

I haven't asked you any.

No, totally, yeah.

What's your favorite jingle?

My favorite jingle?

Oh my God.

Jesus, that's such a good question.

TV theme tune, if you prefer.

I think this may have been done before, but I think Banana Man's really good.

I know I should have was good.

Tintin.

Herjave's Adventures of Tintin.

It's brilliant.

It's incredibly long.

It's a whole sort of-

Well, the intro.

Yeah, it's just the intro music to Tintin, but it's madly long.

It's madly long.

So yeah, that would be my one.

Worth a listen, actually, just to jog to it.

We'll put two seconds on so we don't have to pay the copyright.

It's true, isn't it?

Films and TV used to have huge intros like my kids.

They had massive intros.

They watched anything old and they'll list every job before the thing even begins.

I know.

There was just nothing to do in the old days.

So they were like, well, you can afford to spend-

Nowadays, they're like, quick, start, because they're going to turn off.

It's just like they don't even do it at all.

They get into it quickly, they're already telling you, just shut the fuck up and do something.

But in the 70s, they were just like, they can just sit there for 10 minutes while we don't even put anything on the screen other than some words.

They're not doing anything.

They're not doing anything.

It wasn't extremely true, wasn't it?

I mean, I just, I love that.

I mean, it's so good.

But yeah, there was a good, there was a happy medium.

But yeah, anyway.

Yeah.

Well, Joe, thanks for coming on Television Times.

It was a joy to talk to you.

Thank you, Steve.

Thank you so much.

Lovely to talk to you too.

That was me talking to the lovely Joe Thomas from The Inbetweeners, White Gold, Fresh Meat, he's on everything.

Once I talked to him, I saw him on telly all the time.

Celebrity Bear Hunt, he was on The Weakest Link, every other sort of game show chat show I put on, he was there.

Check him out online, he's a very funny man.

He's got his stand up stuff and he's in loads of stuff online.

Check him out on IMDB.

Now to today's outro track.

Today's outro track is the title song from We Argue in Silence, it's the album I made in Arizona with my now wife in 2009.

And it's the last track on the album, it's the only one I haven't put out on all these podcasts, so I thought I'd pop it on here.

It's a weird one, it's a full on song and I like it.

So this is it, title track of the album, We Argue in Silence.

Some might argue quite a racket.

There's a lot going on in that song.

So that was We Argue In Silence.

That was the title track of the album of the same name, out in 2009, written by me and my future wife, Alyssa.

And there we are.

So that was my first guest of season four, Joe Thomas.

Hope you enjoyed my chat with him, and we'll be back next week with another great guest.

Thanks for listening, and I'll see you soon.

Bye for now.

Look into my eyes, tell your friends about this podcast.