Jack Docherty: From Britpop to Bowie and the Madness of his Channel 5 Chatshow

Good afternoon, good morning, screen rats, couch potatoes.

Right, this one is a good one.

This is one I've been looking forward to putting out.

It's a complete comedy hero moment for me.

So firstly, let me set the scene.

I'm about 19 years old.

I come home from work, I assume.

I pop on the TV.

It's a Thursday night, 10 o'clock.

And on comes this mad TV show called Absolutely, with these amazing actors and great comedians all doing this mad shit that I'd never seen anything like before, including the Stony Bridge sketches and Mr Don and Mr George, the little girl, Marina Banks, John Sparks doing his like, you know, Gwyneth and Denzil.

Jesus Christ, it was so weird, but so funny.

And I loved it.

I just fucking lapped it up.

And I was such a big fan of it, that when one of the seasons ended, it was replaced by Vic and Bob's Big Night Out.

And I was like, what the fuck is this?

And I hated it at first.

And the reason I hated it was because it replaced Absolutely in the schedules.

And little did I know, that not only was today's guest writing and performing on Absolutely as one of the main cast, he was also writing Big Night Out with Vic and Bob.

And today's guest is Jack Docherty.

Now, you know him from so many things, Scott Squad, of course, more recently, but also the massive chat show he had in the late 90s, where he spoke to everybody, including David Bowie and anyone.

I mean, if you literally just put it in YouTube and you tap in The Jack Docherty Show, immediately you'll be hit with all these hits of really famous people from the late 90s, all sitting on the couch with him.

And I was lucky enough to go and see that show.

I was in the audience once.

I cannot, for the life of me, remember who the guests were.

Prior to that, about four or five years earlier, I'd been in the audience for the Mr Don and Mr George spin-off comedy show, of which there was only one season.

So I was there in the room watching these things at the time.

And I loved him and I followed his career all the way.

And to actually get to meet him was unreal.

I first met Jack in 2018 very briefly when I was doing some work up in the Edinburgh Fringe.

So this year I went to see his show all about basically David Bowie.

And I asked him to come onto the podcast and he was so lovely that he came on.

He spent a good hour with me, I think.

And he answered every question and he was so great.

And it was just like, I couldn't really believe I was speaking to him.

Do you know what I mean?

It's the most excited I've been during this podcast because he really is a comedy hero of mine.

And I'm not just saying that.

He is someone I've looked up to and whose comedy career I've followed since I was like 19 years old, you know?

So yeah, I mean, I haven't really got much to say apart from just enjoy the episode.

So here we go.

This is me talking to Jack Docherty.

Welcome to Television Times, a new podcast with your host, me, Steve Otis Gunn.

We'll be discussing television in all its glorious forms.

From my childhood, your childhood, the last ten years, even what's on right now.

So join me as I talk to people you do know and people you don't about what scared them, what inspired them and what made them laugh and cry here on Television Times.

How long have you got?

Probably about 45 minutes.

Perfect, perfect.

Is that enough?

More than enough, I'm sure.

Normally I have a lot of like, television questions, what's your first one?

But with you, I think I might have to do something a bit different because firstly, you're the first person that's actually answered me back in a message using the word cool.

Sometimes I'll say cool or cool beans and they're like delete it because I think, do I sound like a twat or?

No, no, no, I'm still, I'm fully on board with cool.

Yeah, I like cool.

Still, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, why not?

Yeah, absolutely.

I'm very old school and all of that.

I've written some stuff down but weirdly, I don't have to sort of look you up because I've got this, what the kid's calling it, parasocial relationship with you because I've been watching you on TV since 1989.

Of course, of course.

I found out something this morning which actually shocked me because I was a big fan of Absolutely, absolutely huge fan of Absolutely.

For me it was Event TV, like I would, am I right thinking it was on either 10 o'clock on a Thursday, something like that, wasn't it?

No, I think it was Friday.

Was it Friday?

I've got that wrong there.

Oh no, maybe it started on Thursday.

You see, this is going to be the problem with this podcast, often when I do things like this, the person interviewing me knows a lot more about the show than I do because I made it 35 years ago and I haven't seen it since and all that kind of stuff.

But actually, you could be right.

I think it maybe started on the Thursday and then by the end it was on a Friday.

Maybe with the fourth series it was on a Friday because I remember it followed that kind of Friday night comedy thing where you were suddenly in with friends and forays in all those kinds of shows.

But Thursday could be right.

Because I was talking to Chris Forbes about how I initially disliked Vic Reef's Big Night Out.

I did not know you were a script editor on that.

Yes.

And this happened.

Am I right in thinking to me this is how it happened?

I'm probably remembering it wrong.

Absolutely, it was suddenly off.

And you know, like those days, there was no internet.

So you couldn't really get...

Have I seen the sixth episode?

Is that it?

Was it still on?

And I went home one night and absolutely wasn't on.

And Vic Reef's Big Night Out first episode literally went straight in your slot, didn't it?

Yes, I think so.

And I remember thinking, we've done second series of this shit.

Where is Absolutely?

And I had a grudge against Vic Reef.

Not knowing that you were actually involved in it, which is crazy.

Because at first that was a, I mean, Absolutely was pretty out there at the beginning.

But then when Vic Reef came in your slot, I was like, huh?

And it took me a while to tune in.

It was a step further in its outness.

No, I absolutely loved Vic and Bob.

And so we were doing Absolutely.

And then we got to know them because they had a residency down in Detford or somewhere.

New Cross, yeah.

New Cross, yeah, yeah.

And so we would all go down and hang out and see them there.

And there was just such a buzz.

It was like discovering a new band.

You could tell that they were going, they were going to blow up huge.

So when they asked me to work on the show, I always put this the same way.

I mean, it's the least work I've ever had to do in my life.

I just, you know, would go, yeah, that's really funny.

And that's extremely funny, you know?

It's hard to imagine that there's actually a script.

Yeah, exactly.

But there really is, yeah.

And so I really didn't have to do much.

It was just kind of to help transition them slightly from stage to television, I guess, because we'd done, I think, maybe two series by that stage.

So Channel 4, we're just looking for someone, because we'd come the same route, live, stage, then on the television.

And radio was on the way?

Radio was well on the way, yeah.

So, yeah, it was fun, but then I couldn't do the next series because I think we were doing, I think we were recording absolutely at the same time.

So I only worked with them on that one series.

But they had lots of people around, like Charlie here, Charlie Hickson, I went on to work with later on.

So there was plenty of people.

The gang was there to help with them.

Well, not that they need any help.

I got these stores in Lester Square when I moved to London.

Correct, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It was still there.

And John Glors was the other big club at that point.

The original one in Battersea.

Battersea, yes.

On the back, yeah, I can't quite remember where, but yes.

That's near Battersea Arts Centre, isn't it?

Yeah, it's not too far from there.

That's where I got the...

I've already told you, that's what I say on the podcast.

I was at Rosebury for college, and I went to Battersea Arts Centre just after Mr Don and Mr George, and they just had all these props for things, and that's where I got the British Rail seat.

Yeah, yeah, of course.

From our one series of Mr Don and Mr George.

I loved it.

I still love it.

Yeah, yeah, I know people either loved it or hated it, but people who loved it really properly loved it.

We must have had the audience ship at the time.

Yeah, Michael Gray didn't like it, and he was boss of Channel 4 at the time, and he famously said, when they were trying to recommission it, he famously said, I have no idea what this is about.

Does anyone?

Doesn't need to be about anything.

Yeah, exactly.

Now, interestingly, when I get back to London in October, I'm having dinner with Michael Gray.

It happens to be a friend of a friend, and so I'm going to take him up on that.

I'm going to see if he remembers cancelling my show.

So I shall report back to you.

You can do the thing that they do now, where they just reboot something from 30 years ago.

Yeah, exactly.

Mr Don & Mr George, that year reunion.

Mr Don & Mr George, now, can you imagine?

Jesus.

He's gone away for 30 years instead of two years.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

We get back together.

But yeah, I know it's fun.

It was an interesting show because it was almost a kids' show in a curious kind of way.

You know, it was kind of denuded of any kind of...

Because we deliberately said, right, we're not going to do any topical stuff.

We're not going to do any politics.

We're not going to do any self-referential stuff.

We're not going to parody other television shows.

It was kind of very pure.

And it was pre-bottom, wasn't it?

It was pre-bottom.

Yeah, exactly.

It wasn't quite a slapstick.

It wasn't quite as violent.

It was more curious, I think.

It was quite whimsical.

Yeah.

It was a big...

Ivor Cutler, I think, the Scottish poet and singer.

He was a big influence on it.

It was that kind of world that he...

If you don't know him, check him out.

My favorite album of his is Velvet Donkite, with big influence on Oz and Pete and everybody.

Oh, really?

Because his mind is sort of that thing when you've got kids and you see their mind forming before they've understood the rules of the world.

And they'll say things like, turn the dark off, rather than put the light on.

And you go, well, that makes just as much sense.

I've had a stage manager ask me to turn the sun off before.

So, that doesn't ever go away.

Exactly.

Can we do anything about the sun?

And Ivor does the whole, you know, what happens when you cut the grass?

Does the air have to come down the extra inch to reach?

You know, does the air have to expand?

So you can see his mind working as a child.

So that was Don & George, very much like that.

It would just be so kind of literal in our thinking.

I'm wondering if I could introduce, because my son, I've started watching Red Dwarf with him.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You were in a Rob Grant show, weren't you?

What was that called again?

I was in it.

I was also in Red Dwarf.

I was the Inquisitor in Red Dwarf.

You were the Inquisitor?

Yeah, yeah, I was the Inquisitor, yeah.

And then I was with Mark Williams.

We did a show called The Strangers.

Yes, that's what I'm thinking about.

Yeah, the sci-fi, which was the first homegrown show on Sky.

And me, Mark Williams, David Walliams was in it.

And Mark Heap.

Mark Heap, I'm pretty sure Mark was in it.

All these shows that you forget about are just full of talent, full of talent.

Yeah, full of talent.

And the woman, I'm at that age in my life now.

Oh, come on, she's married to Peter Sarah Finnegan.

Sarah Alexander.

Sarah Alexander, thank you very much.

Sarah was in it.

And the bloke from Blake's Seven.

Oh, really?

Yeah, the baddie from Blake's Seven.

As Clive James famous said, Blake's Seven is a very curious show.

There's no Blake and there's only four of them, which was the best TV crits I think I've ever read.

Like the sort of Ben Folds Five thing.

Yeah, exactly.

There's only Ben Folds.

I'm glad you're a Ben Folds fan.

Nice to have a Ben Folds reference.

I gave them their first TV appearance in Britain.

On The Jack Docherty Show?

Really?

On The Jack Docherty Show, The Ben Folds Five, yeah.

That's when I fell in love with them, when they were touring Whatever and Ever Amen.

Might have been their first album, actually.

I think that was earlier than your show.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It was Whatever and Ever Amen.

Or is it 97, your show?

Yeah, yeah, that'll be that.

So before Reinhold Mezner, 99.

Yes, yeah, yeah, no, it's so good.

Genius, the boy, he really is.

Yeah, it's funny, actually, because you have this arc, because your show is about David Bowie.

You don't need, this will come out after Fringe.

Are you doing that anywhere else afterwards?

I don't know, hopefully.

I'm really enjoying doing it.

And it's playing very well to the audiences.

So I'll look to take it down to London.

Yeah, it's brilliant.

It's absolutely fantastic.

I saw it the other night.

Yeah, yeah, it's working well.

I'm beyonder than you, but I still have all those same references.

Yeah, yeah, of course.

The first thing I bought with my own money was the Scary Monsters cassette from Tape Exchange in Camden.

That's a very cool one, too.

Oh, it's great.

And it's still my favorite album, but I think that kind of happens when you're a kid.

The one they introduced you to, yeah.

But yes, you keep quiet the fact that you also bought a status quo album and stuff.

That's what I always do, you know.

I pretended it was all Bowie in Velvet Underground.

The first one I bought with my money as my own money, the first one I asked for was Super Trooper by ABBA, which has nothing wrong with it.

Nothing wrong with that.

I am very big fan of ABBA.

Obviously, I had to hide that in the back of the day.

And of course, the show that you just saw with the monotonic section of me watching David Bowie and getting turned on for the first time.

Of course, the reality of the story is it was actually in ABBA, of course.

I remember feeling a little bit funny inside when I saw Marilyn.

Do you remember that guy called Marilyn?

Yeah, yeah, that was a good, confusing thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, knowing, get that, Marilyn was, yeah, Marilyn was very sexy.

So where were we?

Ben Folds, how did we get on the Ben Folds Five?

Well, weirdly, the first time I ever came to Fringe Jack, I came to see Ben Folds play Rock in the Suburbs live.

Ah, brilliant.

But I didn't know the Fringe was on because I didn't know anything about the Fringe because it was the year 2000.

Yeah, yeah, nice.

I hadn't been to the Fringe yet.

And I just rocked up here, went to see Ben Folds and I was like, oh, what's all this?

But that was in the days when you could literally rock up and get a room.

And luckily I've got family here, otherwise I wouldn't make any money at all.

That's really, really good.

It's crazy.

Yeah, yeah, it's pretty mad.

It's just so prohibitive.

There's got to be something about it.

I don't know what it's going to be.

Maybe massive ships, maybe barges.

We can all live on barges.

That's not a terrible idea.

Along with all the...

Bibi Stockholm.

All our immigrants.

Yeah, exactly.

What is the answer?

I don't know.

I'm staying in Penicuik at the moment, which is like an hour outside.

Penicuik, excellent mispronunciation of Penicuik.

Well done.

What did I say?

Penicuik.

Penicuik, mate.

Penicuik.

Penicuik.

Penicuik, that's where I am.

Well, Penicuik's all right, and it's not too far.

It's not too far.

Yeah, we used to do a sponsored walk to Penicuik at school, so it can't be that far.

Because we were late 13 and got there and back, so what's that, 18 miles or something?

Yeah, it's all right.

It's all right, but yes, you're not slap bang in the center of things in Penicuik.

No, when I was working for these guys, they put me up in a flat in Georgia Square.

I said, coin come down.

There you go.

I don't know, I haven't seen it since we made it.

It just goes on and on.

It goes on and on.

We were a big fan of those kinds of things.

We did one where we listed endless names of legal firms.

We were all changing them at the Squash Club, and it was all, oh, so and so's left, you know, Bartleby Bookerby, Hegarty, and think, oh, boy, Hegarty's left, you know, Skinner McKay, Hegarty.

I just got longer and longer and longer, and you can see his old desk, we're trying to remember the words.

Yeah, we just had to remember it.

And then there was another one where we changed every word to Perkins, the Perkins, Mr Perkins, Mr Perkins, here to see you.

And I remember when this Perkins was all Perkins, I can't, yeah, yeah.

A lot of it was just nonsense, yeah, but fun.

Watching your show, I was like, how do you remember all this?

Yeah, I know, I don't know quite.

This one is actually not so bad, because there's so many sound cues and there's so many visual cues, so that helps you, that prompts you if you do forget.

So that's not so bad.

But tell you, no, you've only got the week to learn it and then you bang it out and...

When Kids in the Hall came along in the 90s from Canada, I really felt like they were influenced by you guys.

Yes.

With the squashed head and all of that.

Yeah, the squashed head.

They were, interestingly, a promoter tried to get us together at one point.

That makes sense.

I think there was a proposal to get a TV show with the pair of us mashed up together.

Oh, there you go.

So I think, yeah, and Moreno was a big fan of Kids in the Hall.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think knew a few of them.

And it just didn't happen.

But I remember thinking that would have been great, actually.

To see what we would have come up with as a collective.

Please, do it now.

Exactly, that would be great.

Moreno and John Sparks being in Peppa Pig.

That's weird.

I know.

My kids are watching that and I'm going, there's two people from my favorite TV show.

I know.

Moreno's in everything.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, her voice.

She's so good at voices.

You don't know half the time the stuff that she's doing.

Because she's so good.

And Sparks too.

John does a lot.

Yeah, I missed out on a lot, I got asked to do a lot of the Ardman stuff, but I wasn't available.

Yeah, so I keep meaning to try and circle back and sort of do...

Do you do any voiceover stuff at all?

Not really, no.

No, I keep meaning to it, people keep telling me that I should because of my dulcet.

That's so profundo.

Duh.

I used to go and get audience tickets for things I liked in the 90s, and it was a cinch.

It was just like, I guess I found a number, maybe I wrote a letter, I don't know what I did.

But I'm sort of very confused how I would have known about Mr Don and Mr George and how I got in that audience, because if there's only one season of it, how did I know?

Well, did you know because you knew absolutely?

Or you must have just been, God knows.

Maybe, but where would it have been advertised that it was being filmed?

Because it wasn't like, I'm just very confused by that.

Maybe I didn't buy the stage or anything.

No, and there was no internet, so as you say, it's impossible to know.

I don't even know.

How did anybody find out about anything?

I mean, I was very excited.

I cannot remember who the guest was when I came.

But I remember it being really small in the audience.

I felt like it was so tiny, but so big on TV.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so tiny.

But like, very, very exciting.

That was a very exciting time for you, I'd imagine, when you took that over.

Well, kind of, but it wasn't my thing, really, being a Cheshire horse.

I didn't really enjoy it.

And here's to Michael Parkinson, who's just died this morning.

Yeah, I just heard that before this.

He was the goat, as we say.

Yeah, I mean, I kind of enjoyed it for a while, but I didn't really, it wasn't my thing, you know?

I prefer writing and acting.

And I was kind of frustrated that we talked to people who were writing and acting.

I'd rather do what you're doing.

It was great, because well, as you see, I mean, the show that I'm doing about David Bowie, would that happen because of the Cheshire?

I wouldn't have met Bowie without that.

And I met lots of interesting people, but it just didn't fire me creatively, you know?

Really?

And I think it's got to be the thing you want to do more than anything.

You know, like Graham and Jonathan, who are so good at it.

They're, you know, it's the only thing we've kind of ever wanted to do.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, and they are who they are, I think.

When you meet those guys on television in the chat show, they're just a slightly larger version of who they are in real life.

Whereas I sort of acted the part of a chat show host, do you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, because it wasn't really me.

I was quite anxious to start that.

Yeah, yeah.

There was a new channel as well, a new channel, a new show.

And all that stuff that no one could see it because you couldn't get, the signal wasn't strong enough or something.

God, I don't remember that.

So lots of parts of the country, it looked like it was snowing and there was all these snowing jokes about it.

So yeah, there was a bit of pressure and that opening night, the Spice Girls were on and they were at the height of their fame.

So that was fun, you know, it was kind of a buzz.

I mean, you were right in it.

You were right in that sort of end of Britpop, rule Britannia.

Completely.

Yeah, it was, and the Tories got thrown out about a month into the show, a very exciting time.

And yes, it was Britpop and you'd go out afterwards with guests and you'd end up in the Met Bar or wherever and, you know, Damon Albaugh would be over there and one of Oasis and, you know, oh, here's Jarvis, you know, all that kind of stuff.

So it was an exciting time to be in London.

And so it was great for about six months and I thought, ah, that's enough, let's move on.

Became work, yeah.

I think one day a week, perfect job.

Oh yeah, because you know, you started, what was it?

Yeah, I started five nights a week.

Five nights a week, that's not bad.

Not enough money to make the show, not enough guests.

I think he even, Graham only did three, I think.

Could he?

Yeah, and then now does one and that's perfect.

One is enough, it's not America.

Exactly, and Graham's so good at it and you're always going to get the absolute best guests in town.

So the way he corrals all of them and so.

It's true, there was that time when the, when the Russell Band Scandaly thing happened to Jonathan Ross, I was really, I was very into Jonathan Ross.

Yeah.

And when Graham jumped into that BBC role, again, I was like, I prefer, and then over the years, now I realized actually, he's the best.

He is the best actually.

He has this skill of like, just sort of making everyone at ease and he'll call them out and diss them to their faces.

Completely.

And they'll take it and they'll fly with it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and he will, no, it's a bit like the Vietnam War, unless you've done a chat show, unless you've been there.

Yeah, yeah.

You don't quite know what it's like.

And when you watch Graham, he's so skillful at it.

And because I think there's still a little bit, and I had the ego of, well actually this show should just be a bit more about me rather than the guests.

And I think at times Jonathan had a little bit of that, you know?

Frank's getting a little bit of that.

Whereas Graham, you don't get that sense, you really get the sense that he's the master of ceremonies.

That's true, yeah.

He's gonna corral and give the time and get the best out of the guests.

But then just drop in and be brilliant when he wants to be, you know?

And when he needs to be, so, yeah.

What model were they going after with yours?

Like, what was the-

It was much more a Letterman kind of thing.

So, go for, you know, five nights a week.

Get a lot, you know, try and drive it with comedy, try and drive it with absurdism.

And I actually, when we got absurd, I quite liked it, but the audiences were very nervous and shy about the really experimental stuff when I would really fuck around.

I always tell the story of getting Martin Clunes on and going, okay, here's the deal, Martin, I'm gonna ask you about me behaving badly and this and that, I just say I don't wanna talk about that to everything I ask you, I don't wanna talk about that, I don't wanna talk about that.

And then I said, what we'll do is then we'll just sit in silence for about 30 seconds, it'll be really awkward.

And then sound will raise the noise of a tap dripping in the background.

And then what will happen?

I said, well, I'll kiss you.

And then, so of course, when you're doing that, to me, that's just, I love it.

It's brilliant, it's nice.

Gold dust, just fucking fuck with the whole thing.

Just, you know, just interrogate the whole thing and just mess with it.

But of course, the audience is sitting there going, oh my God, this is so awkward.

And then they'd focus group it.

And I'd have to go to all these focus group meetings where they would go, with much preferential, Mr Docherty just asked Mr Clu.

It's a nice question about men made by women.

And I kind of get that, you know?

Because when I'm watching them, I think, actually, I do want to hear from the guests.

But when you're making it, you know, we always said, you know, first there were chat shows, then there were chat shows about chat shows, then we wanted to be a chat show about chat shows about chat shows.

You know, I just keep kind of, a snake eating its tail.

And so, Philip Jones was the series editor, and he now runs Sky Arts.

And occasionally we get together and just laugh out loud at the audacity of the shit we did.

I mean, you were like, parodying it slightly, because I mean, you did, it was in the post Larry Sanders world at that point, right?

So, people have seen that sort of, well, not everyone had, but a lot of people had seen that sort of, the inner workings and they know there's someone in your ear.

Yeah, yeah.

All the pressure behind it and all the suits that are probably telling you what to do.

Yeah, completely.

So, it's probably amazing that you got to do any of it.

Yeah, yeah, that we were allowed to do it, that they didn't.

We did keep expecting that they would pull us, because we just ignored every note they gave us and just did what the fuck we wanted to do.

What were the audiences like?

Was it mostly young or did you look out to blue rinses sometimes?

Completely mixed, blue rinses sometimes, sometimes full if it was a good guess.

Sometimes we'd be out on the street barking, getting people in, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

Sometimes, yeah, yeah.

Sometimes we couldn't get an audience, five nights a week.

So you just paid those?

And then, again, it was all money as well.

For a while, we couldn't afford to have the company that got an audience in.

So it was just word of mouth.

So we had so little money.

I mean, I think when we were researching, Marwena, who was the first producer on it, discovered that Letterman's entertainment and car budget was the same as we had to make the entire show.

Really?

So he just, to ferry his guests to and fro over a week was what we had to make the show.

I mean, it was like, I can't even remember what it was, but it was a ridiculously small amount of money.

So they just started off with a small budget in January 5, January.

Yeah, completely.

But then we got great writers.

You know, we got Cecil and Wiley, we got Jesse Armstrong and Sam Bain, Mitchell and Webb.

That's where I met all of those guys, you know?

And they came through.

So those shows are great for, now that we don't have so many sketch shows, for getting new writers in.

Again, Mitchell and Webb, that's up there with, absolutely for me, that they're sketching the present for my aunt, the sketch, and just like, you know, I can't even get into it.

So good, I love them so much.

They're my go-to for like, that one where, oh, the Sherlock Holmes where they just swathe in cards.

Hit the door.

Yeah, yeah, I watched the brain surgery.

Well, it's not brain surgery.

They had sketched the other.

Maybe we can make them brush their tongues.

It's very on your sort of level, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is every kind of thing.

It's like they took the baton.

I'm very pleased that I gave them their first, this is a terrible, a dark light on the critical process in Edinburgh.

So when I was up doing a show in 93 Edinburgh and Scotland on Sunday asked me to be the guest critic, they'd have a famous critic and go and do something.

And they told me to, I got the Cambridge Fruitlights.

And before I even went, the editor phoned me up and said, I'd just really give them a good kicking.

You don't need to hold back.

And I was going, well, I haven't seen the show yet.

Just because they're sort of from the posh?

Yeah, well, it's the fruitlights.

I can just lay into them.

No, I'm not going to do that.

Even if I don't like it, I'm not going to lay into them.

But it was Robert Webb and it was Olivia Colman probably and James Bachman.

I don't know if Mitchell was involved.

But I wrote a very glowing crit.

And every time I meet Robert, he can still quote the crit.

Yeah, because of course it meant a lot to them to get out.

Yeah, of course.

Because everybody was out wanting to just slag them off because of who they were.

But I thought, obviously these people are talented.

It's Robert and Olivia.

They might be 19.

They might be raw, but they're fucking good.

I can't imagine David Mitchell at 19.

Yeah.

Yeah, he probably was.

I just can't remember if he was in it.

Maybe, I think it was just Robert.

He might have been writing.

I can't remember.

So do you have a favorite guest that came on to your chat show?

Yeah, apart from Bowie.

I always say...

Not that you'd say secondary.

Yeah, exactly.

It's the ones that you loved as a teenager, you know.

That's the ones that you never kind of get over the excitement of meeting them.

So we had a couple of the Pythons.

You know, Palin was on, Terry Jones was on.

Do you ever get starstruck yourself?

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

I got starstruck with them.

George Harrison and Ringo Starr got starstruck with them.

So, yeah, people that I'd loved at 13.

Yeah.

But then also it was great when we got some new music.

I liked Ben Folds and, you know, we gave...

You know, we had a whole show, The Divine Comedy.

We gave them the whole show.

That was great.

Because my two favourite things in the world are Ben Folds.

Well, it was Bowie and Madness.

And then that went to Ben Folds and Neil Halland and Divine Comedy.

Well, you have fine taste.

Yeah, Divine Comedy was great.

I think it was UNCFI, basically, that were feeding us music.

Yes, of course.

Yeah, exactly.

Like, here's some new music.

And I guess Graham does it now.

Because there's any new music I listen to is generally from something.

That and for me, it's Jules, of course.

That's where I'll pick up new bands.

There's nowhere else to really hear it now, is there?

Not really, no.

But that was great.

So breaking people.

And then just people, my contemporaries, you know, it was always good to have Eddie on.

Or when Vicky Bob came on, it was great to have them.

It was mayhem for 20 minutes, you know.

So all good, yeah.

Are these episodes on like fives?

No, I think that now you find them on YouTube.

They're generally just posted by people who were fans of the guests.

So you'll get famous, you won't get them all though.

You could never release them on DVD or anything, or whatever the kind of thing is.

Nor would I want to.

Or you could do a good one.

We did talk about releasing the best stuff with a commentary, which might be quite fun.

Just a really honest commentary by all the team that made it.

Yes.

Because I feel very guilty about it because all the writers now, whenever I meet them they talk about coming into work and I'd be lying under the table going, please tell me the show's been cancelled.

Really?

Not exactly a team leader.

Yeah, I know.

Like Larry David basically.

Yeah, don't renew me.

It was exactly that.

Just please don't renew me.

And I've always wanted to try and write a show about that, which is the opposite of...

The Gary Shandler, Larry Sanders Show.

Where it was all about the paranoia, Larry Sanders was all about the paranoia of, oh my God, is the opposition gonna beat me and I'll get canceled.

To do a show about someone who's trying to get canceled, but just can't, he doesn't want the job any longer, and they won't release him from his contract.

But you pitch that, people go, people don't believe that.

People think it must be the best job in the world.

You're very well paid.

You're meeting famous people all the time.

You're on telly, but no, it does happen.

It's hard when you get what you want.

I mean, my only, what you're reminding me of from my own personal life is when I, I always wanted to be a sound number one in the West End.

We finally got it on.

Beep, beep, beep, beep, show.

I used to, similar to that, I used to go out front and I'd lie under the mixing desk and try and get my heart rate down and meditate.

Yeah, right, yeah, okay.

I'd mix a good show and I think it was great.

And then I'd just get a lot of notes.

And you always had to stay at the end for like an hour.

And then someone would tell you that what you did was shit.

Every day, every day, someone.

He was never good enough.

And I remember just thinking, this is the worst job I've ever had.

I need a little room in there, people coming in, doing their thing, and I'll just move some mics around.

The best job I ever had in there, like seven or eight years ago, just sitting in a room, being badly paid, watching great comedy, moving a few things around every 15 minutes.

There's nothing quite like it, you know?

Coming back, you know, because I gave the fringe up for so many years and I've done three in a row.

1980, it says online, was your first show.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was 18, so I was quite young.

But it's just, yeah, I love it.

It's just the same size.

It's just the same, except one fish taco will cost £12.

Exactly, and there's 4,000 shows.

Yeah, 1980, long time ago.

But yeah, it's just, there's nothing quite like it.

It's just so immediate and you do it and bang, and you see 20, 30, 40 shows.

It's brilliant.

Don't you think it's time that we ask Jack some specific questions from the podcast?

I'll ask you some actual podcast questions.

Yes, of course, that's quite all right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So we can get deep into the man.

Yeah, yeah, cool.

I was going to ask you, what was I going to ask you about?

The Bodgers, 1980.

Oh, wow, yeah.

All kinds of stuff, but I like to keep it real.

Yeah, yeah.

By the way, Jack, seriously, thank you for doing this.

No, not at all.

I'm very happy to do that.

It's probably really weird to hear, but like, you know, first guest I've had on this podcast, I actually know their career well and I just, I can't believe you're talking to me.

It makes no sense to me.

All right, pick a number.

Let's do it this way.

Okay, number three.

What's the TV show that made you cry your eyes out?

None.

I've got a heart of...

Have you?

I really do have a very, very black heart.

I'm not entirely sure that I've ever cried at a TV show.

You think it gets a 40 and start crying when the kid's dad doesn't come out of the game or something?

Which one?

This is...

I tell you...

Murray always talked about being caught crying at Little House on the Prairie.

And I always liked the idea that Murray was been watching afternoon television at Little House on the Prairie.

This is life.

What's the one recently that was...

Get your Google machine up.

Women having triplets.

And This Is Us.

You don't need to...

I haven't seen This Is Us.

I haven't seen that.

Very good.

That's as close as you can get.

Because it just is right on the line before tipping into sentimentality.

I thought it looked like a 30-something kind of...

Kind of, but a bit darker than that.

I thought there were too many beautiful people in it.

Yeah, there's a few beautiful people, but there's also non-beautiful people too.

And This Is Us.

Mandy Moore is beautiful, though, to be fair.

Not glossy and shiny?

No, not glossy.

Real.

But skates close to sentimentality.

But that, seven seasons of, you know, 20-odd.

So you really, really get into the characters.

And that's the closest I've got to tears.

Really?

So you can feel it coming?

Yeah, I can feel, yeah.

But that is, Toby, it's fine.

As long as you're recognizing the moment where you should be crying, you don't necessarily have to be crying.

You're not a maniac.

You're not a psychopath going, why, what is emotion?

I find this out.

But I grew up in a certain time when you weren't allowed to show your emotions.

Oh, of course not.

It's gone, don't you dare cry, you know?

So yeah, that's the short answer.

Never, how dare you suggest I'm a snowflake.

Let's go the other way then.

What did you see on television as a child that made you shit yourself?

Oh, yeah, well, I'm afraid it's the obvious.

I'm sad to say it's Doctor Who.

What was it?

Literally behind the sofa, it was the Cybermen when the form was coming through the underground tunnel.

So no idea what that would be.

Way, way earlier than the 60s.

And the idea that these Cybermen were coming to get me was black and white.

It was probably William Hartnell or the guy who followed William Hartnell.

Patrick Troughton.

Patrick Troughton, yeah, well played.

Familiar was.

Patrick Troughton, yeah, before Power Week.

But yeah, that scared the bejesus out of me.

It really did.

I think it's got ominous in black and white in a weird way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The frame rate was weird, right?

It looked like, almost like video when I see someone.

Yeah.

And it was just the cliffhanger aspect of it.

We were so bamboozled.

There was one where a lieutenant, what's his name, was standing there and holding a gun.

You know, someone's holding a gun on him.

And then you hear the shot of the gun, you know?

And you think, oh, well, he's dead.

And the whole week, me and my friends and the pig, I'm like, what's happened?

He's been shot.

And of course, they just start the next episode, they pull out and somebody's shooting the guy who's going to shoot the lieutenant.

You go, oh, that's clever.

But you're eight, so you haven't worked it out.

And you have to wait 168 hours to find out what's happened.

Not now.

Not now, you can binge it.

You can literally go.

And you can also Google it.

And even if something ends and you're like, what the fuck does that mean?

Ending explained.

Ending explained, I know.

But it's like that thing I mentioned in the show that I try and lie and get away with the band that followed David Bowie.

But you go, well, here's the joke I've written.

And you go, well, I can't go with that joke because you could Google the actual band who followed David Bowie.

So it even affects what you're doing in comedy.

Can you get away with a lie?

I wrote this book, You Shot My Dog and I Love You.

It's set in the 70s and 80s.

Even my own memories, I had to then go in and go, was that that in there?

That's what's good about it.

You can actually check.

It's nice when you find out you're like bang on.

You know what I mean?

I can't remember watching something else on John interview when my nan went to Ireland in 1987.

I'm pretty sure it was Easter and I drank some cider with my friend.

I looked it up.

It is.

Yeah, you can put it all in there.

I'll ask you this one.

I don't know if you'll answer this one.

You can pick your own thing, of course.

What's the funniest thing you've ever seen on TV?

The funniest thing I've ever seen, I think, in terms of so many funny things I've seen on TV, but the thing that really made me laugh and fall in love with comedy, and I was already getting interested in comedy, was the Markham and Wise Andre Previn sketch.

Because I just saw it was coming together, all aspects of that show, it was just perfect, it was the perfect guest, it was the perfect performance from the pair of them, the fact that the band was so obviously enjoying it, you could sense the audience there loving it, and people go, oh, it's terrible with canned laughter, and you always go, it's not actually canned laughter, it's a real live audience there, and you know that, you know the difference between a real audience and canned laughter, it's just coming out of the television, the joy that they're having, and also just the fact that the Braben script is so perfect, you know, the idea that you can lengthen a piece of music by another yard.

And he's so straight with it, he's like such a good straight man.

Who knew André Perret was funny, but without doing anything really.

Without doing anything.

You'd be livin on a phone like that, he's just standin there, just takin it.

Yeah, yeah, they were at the height of their power, so I loved that.

And then the most I've ever laughed, it wasn't television, the most I've ever laughed out loud was when I went to see Love and Death, the Woody Allen movie with my sister.

And I was 12, I think, maybe I was 13, I was sneaked in by my dad, he lied and said I was, you know, and then he left us to go and see it.

And we were actually asked to leave, because I was laughing so much when Woody Allen comes in with a massively long, you know, about three feet, maybe longer, maybe six feet long wrapped package as a gift for Diane Keaton.

And she goes, what's that?

And he says, you know those earrings you've always wanted?

I just couldn't conceive of anything as funny as that.

That is great.

And just laughing and laughing and laughing, and then the usher coming in and telling us, and of course that made us laugh even more.

Brilliant.

So you were influenced by Woody Allen, do you think, in some way or form?

Yes, obviously Woody now, it's a difficult area.

It's a difficult area.

It's a difficult one, we get into it with all the Woodster.

Separate the art from the man, who knows?

But yeah, no, I loved him as a kid.

Loved his, the early funny ones.

And actually I loved the serious ones as well.

Stardust Memories, I think is a great one.

Yeah, Aphrodite is my favorite, I think.

Yeah, no, but the late ones, Husbands and Wives.

Actually the ones where he got a bit dark.

But yeah, I troubled catch it clearly.

Clearly.

I've got to the stage of my life where I've become happy in not watching or reading or staying in things that I'm not enjoying.

You'll walk out of a cinema?

I will walk out of a cinema.

I will not finish a book.

Really?

Yeah, it's tough.

I used to, I think it was also when you didn't have any money.

You know, I would browse in a bookstore for an hour and be absolutely certain of the book because I was going to spend money on it, you know?

And then, you know, you get a bit of money and you suddenly go, I'll buy four or five books, you know, at the time, and then I'll be halfway through one of those things.

Yeah, exactly.

I haven't gone to them yet.

But I can walk away from a book now.

Do you give it away or do you keep it in your house?

No, I'll keep it in the library and pretend I've read it, obviously.

If it's, no.

If it's one I don't like, I'll just, yeah, I'll give it to somebody else.

But I will walk out of, yeah, and I just don't really watch television if I'm not enjoying it.

So there's nothing where I'm going, oh, this is shit.

So in the current climate, there's a lot of, you know, guilty pleasure TV watching going on.

Yeah.

Reality shit.

Well, actually, I guess some reality stuff.

I've got daughters and I'll suddenly sit down with them to watch a bit of a Kardashian or something.

Oh, I've never seen that.

How is it?

Yeah, it's, well, you get it, it's quite compulsive.

Right.

Or a maiden Chelsea.

So I guess, or Love Island, you know, when they were all obsessed with that, that was kind of interesting.

But I would just dip in and out of it, you know, I want to sit through it.

I like the interesting ones, like traitors, I quite like them.

Traitors I really loved actually.

Yeah, I thought that was very good.

That's not shit.

What is a TV show that you would delete from history, sort of Men in Black, Press a Button, No One Remembers It Existed?

And what is a TV show you would bring back from the dead?

Do you know, I'm gonna be controversial.

I'm gonna delete my chat show from history.

There you go.

There you go.

Really?

Well, it's kind of like, I only did it for two years, but even if I Google myself, there's still a lot about that chat show.

And it always frustrates me.

I think I've done all this other stuff.

Yeah, yeah, of course.

But because it was very high profile.

So let's get rid of that one.

And I would like to have Seinfeld back, I think.

Same cast, probably tricky with Michael Richards.

I think he's sort of been, weirdly been forgiven.

Has he been forgiven now?

It is an odd one because you can see it.

You can almost see what he's trying to do in that moment as a stand up, you know?

And it's just going off the rails.

Why did he say that?

Because he doesn't think that, I don't think.

No, he doesn't think that.

Yeah, yeah, he was just going out there and going.

Was that the first cancellation?

I think it probably was.

I went to see Alfie Brown's show the other night.

I know Alfie.

I know his parents very well.

He went through a terrible year, you know, with the carbonist's canceling, finding old stuff.

Again, take him out of context.

And again, you can see him struggling to find his style that he then overlapped, something he's just got.

And last year, his show was one of the best I've ever seen.

But it's interesting because I think his show this year is addressing it and he's talking about it and it's still a work in progress.

So I think he will come back because he's taking it on and taking responsibility for it.

Not just waiting for it to go away.

Exactly, not just Louis C.K.ing it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because again, I thought Louis CK would, there was some way back for him if he was just to actually do a show about how the fuck he got to that point when he was doing that shit.

Why did he sort of go on a bit, not right wing, but he's sort of, he's become a sycophant for that sort of Exactly.

And he's just ignored it and then gone back and now he's playing all the clubs again.

I watch him, I like him, but it's an awkward watch.

I'm like, this doesn't seem like the same guy.

And when I was last in New York, I was going down to the comedy store, whichever one it was, and they sent, I noticed going with a ticket, you know, Louis CK might be appearing tonight, so if you don't want to turn up, you don't have to turn up.

So they do all that kind of stuff, but no, but I'm-

Shut the fuck up, just watch the guy.

I mean, I feel like I've talked to you a lot about your past TV show, but I didn't really talk about Scott Squad.

Yeah, Scott Squad, my current television show, yeah.

Is it coming back?

Cause Chris said it had done its final season.

Yes, it has done its final season.

I saw your, it was five years ago now, your chief.

I got 2018, yes.

Your chief.

Chief Ed McGlashan.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That was my return to the festival after 25 years.

When I turned to live performing.

So that must be good.

How is it for you?

Cause do people come up to you and go, and get like, Mr Jack?

Yeah, yeah, it's weird.

How is it to be like, I mean, it's a straight question.

Yeah.

How is it like to be famous?

Yeah, it's odd because you realize that fame is so relative, and my best example of this is Sting's kids when they were about 13, 15, something like that.

Yeah.

Kids he had with Francis Tomlton.

They were huge, absolutely fans.

And so Francis got in touch with us and said, can I bring them down to recording?

We said, yeah, we'll bring them down to rehearsals as well.

They can just sit around and we can say hello and all of that.

And they were so excited to meet us that they were just beside themselves with excitement.

I remember just thinking, but hang on, your dad stinks.

You probably have lunch with Bono and Bob Gildow.

Why are you so excited to meet me?

But of course, it's your, yeah, famous who you are in love with, who you meet.

So it's all, yeah.

So it's odd.

It is odd.

Particularly, this is my home time.

I get recognized a lot.

Yeah.

But he wanted just enough.

I was out with David Baddiel the other night and it's almost a little bit too much because he's so well-known.

It's just, and of course, in the old days, it was the autographs and it was just endless selfies, you know.

Oh, yeah.

You go get your photograph taken and it's fine.

You'd rather die than not.

It means people are enjoying what you're doing.

So it's great.

But yeah, it doesn't mean anything.

Well, the best example of fame I heard recently was Alex James, the bass player of Brewer.

Yes, yeah, yeah.

He said after that big gig they did recently in Wembley, he went home to the farm and he had to do all the washing up because it was all piled up and he just went straight back down to earth.

Yeah, of course.

Perfect.

Coming off the stage and doing that.

Yeah, donning his Britpop that he's now advertising, I see.

I like Alex James.

Yeah, I love him.

I love him.

He's on My Wife's Allowadlist.

She always loved Alex James.

Yeah, your generation just a bit above me always have this list of people they can fuck.

I don't want to do that with my wife.

I don't want to anymore.

It's like a nightmare.

No, it is.

Thank you so much for doing Television Times Podcast.

Well, thank you.

If you don't mind, I'll give you a copy of my book.

I don't want to give you something to carry around.

I'm going to check the ones that we didn't do.

Yeah, go on.

Have a look.

Let's have a look at these ones.

First TV crush, Felicity Kendall.

Of course.

Well, look at that.

TV show you would raise.

Oh, Donald Lett.

TV show you feel doesn't get the credit it deserves.

The Pamela Adlon one.

Yes.

Yeah.

Better Things.

Better Things.

Yes.

Fantastic show.

Genius.

Really good.

Created by Louis CK of course, with her.

Co-created.

Did you see the show I did before that?

No, I haven't seen that one.

It might have just been called Louis with a sort of 70s font.

It was like a sort of little sitcom show, but they were just saying cunt all the time.

It's really good.

But it's Pamela Adlon as well, isn't it?

Pamela Adlon and him as a married couple.

Well, Better Things.

Fantastic.

Late night TV, she was always Hibs.

I was allowed to wait up and see Hibs playing football.

What an invention.

Definitely to artists again.

Invention from TV.

What was the biggest change you witnessed TV-wise?

Colour.

Black and white to colour.

I was there.

Were you?

Yeah.

What's the first thing you saw?

A football match.

I couldn't believe.

Oh, really?

There was a lot of racing for us in the football match.

My God, look at the green.

And then the sneaker came on.

And then the sneaker came on, yeah.

Excellent.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Cheers, man.

I mean, can you believe it?

Such a great chat.

I enjoyed talking to him so much.

It was absolutely brilliant.

There's gonna be a nice picture of us together on Instagram, on my personal page.

You can check that out.

He's an absolutely fucking legend.

And he was so giving, you know?

He gave me a whole nearly an hour there where we chatted.

It was absolutely brilliant.

It was the fucking highlight of my fringe.

And now to today's outro track.

It is a song called This Town Is Not My Home.

I originally came up with this idea on a piano in the least artistic town on earth, Milton Keynes.

It was in my digs and I was sort of feeling like, oh my God, I'm always in someone else's bed or someone else's house or someone else's hotel, Airbnb, whatever it was at the time.

And you know, for those of you who don't know, I lived a lot of years out of a bag.

I did not live in a house.

I did not do the bills thing.

I was not locked down in any way for the best part of two decades.

And this song is kind of about the lonely part of that sort of life.

And later on, about a year later, I sort of started putting this song together again.

And my now wife, I only call her that because I don't want to put her name on here, by the way.

I'm not being like, you know, ownership and all that shit.

But she sort of reworked it with me for our album, We Argue in Silence, which we recorded in Phoenix, Arizona in 2009.

I should of course mention that this album has been remastered and is available on Spotify, Apple Music and many other music platforms.

If you just search my name, Steve Otis Gunn, that should pop up.

So here we go.

This is This Town Is Not My Home.

That was This Town Is Not My Home from the album We Argue In Silence, as I mentioned before, available on all music platforms.

But still, come back for another podcast next week where we have the first of a two-parter.

I hope you enjoyed this one.

Come back next week for more.