Graham Fellows: From 'Top of the Pops' to Perfectly Broken Keyboards and Endless Bounty Bars

Good afternoon, good morning, good evening Screen Rats, and welcome to another episode of Television Times podcast.

Now today, I've got a great guest for you.

I love this one.

This is one of my favorites.

I've had a lot of really good ones recently.

I really enjoyed like the Stephen Curry episode, the TV roundup of 2024 with Paul Kritoff.

They're just really good flowing, good conversations that I really enjoyed, sort of trying to stick with the format, but not quite.

I love those ones, and today's one of those, which leads me to sort of bring up this other point, which is, we're not doing any more of these bad audio episodes.

We've had a couple lately where I've had to sort of deal with the other end not being great.

Actually, this comes up today a little bit as well, because I almost accepted bad audio from today's guest, but of course, I'm not going to do that anymore.

I've had this sort of thing of like, well, if I can get them on, it doesn't matter who they are, I'll fix it later.

Sometimes it's really hard and it takes a lot of time to sort of sort out the problem, it messes with the flow of the conversation.

It's just not worth it.

So regardless of who's on here, however famous they are, if the audio is bad there and we're going to have to do it again or a different way or just forget the whole thing, we're not going to put out bad audio anymore guys, okay?

So that's one promise that you're going to get from me because it's been frustrating me lately.

The other thing is we're going to take a little break soon.

After that break, we are going to sort of have another little rethink on the pod and change up a little bit here and there, maybe add some other elements, but also we have had directors on, but I want to get some more behind the camera people, you know, some people in production and things like that.

And we've actually got a really cool episode like that coming up to sort of round off this section of episodes very soon.

But let's get to today's guest.

Today's guest is Graham Fellows.

Now, if you don't know the name, you'll definitely know some of his work.

He was Jilted John, he had the massive hit in the late 70s.

I think he sold like, what, half a million copies of that record, I think he told me.

And then he went into Comedy Proper and, you know, he came up with the fantastic character, John Shuttleworth.

And that's when sort of, you know, I got really into him.

He had a song out, it's called Pigeons in Flight.

And then he was on all the Jonathan Ross shows and he had the album called The Yamaha Years, which was out at almost the exact same time I was working for Yamaha selling keyboards in Harrods.

That was funny.

And, you know, I just loved him.

I thought it was really, really funny.

And through mutual friends on social media, I noticed that he had a connect.

So I got in contact and when the podcast was first launched, I invited him on and it was a bit tricky to get him on.

He's a bit of a white whale.

And eventually the stipulation was no swearing because he'd heard a few episodes.

He didn't like my potty mouth behavior, which is fair enough.

And that does come up as well.

But, you know, he did agree to come on and I'm so grateful.

I really am.

It was such a fun one to do.

And it was a real thrill for me to talk to him.

So let's get into it.

Let's get straight in.

This is me talking to the brilliant Graham Fellows.

For he's a jolly good fellow, for he's a jolly good fellow, for he's a jolly good fellow, Graham Fellows.

Roll up, roll up, and welcome to another edition of Television Times with your host me, Steve Otis Gunn, where I'll be talking to someone you do know or someone you don't.

It might be funny, but it might not be, but it's always worth tuning in for.

So here we go with another episode of Television Times.

I'm a little saddened that you were happy to go with the shit sound.

No, I wasn't really, of course I wasn't really.

But anyway, nice to meet you, Graham.

I'm just going to have to unravel my headphones now because they're wrapped around the bloody...

Oh, here we go.

It's going to pull something.

It's going to unplug again.

I was making a joke then, because I swore, and do you remember I'd only do this podcast on the condition that you dropped all my swearing?

Your abusive tongue.

So would you like to get the swearing out of the way?

Do you want to get some curse words out?

What I'm saying is I think swearing is very good when you're really pissed off.

Yes, you got to save it for the right moment.

I can't stand this just casually dropping it in like because I'm young and trendy or something.

And that's what I feel, you know, with all due respect, which is a lovely thing to say just before you insult someone.

Go on.

That's what I felt that you were doing.

Really?

Was I really doing that?

Well, a lot of people do it, you know.

I think what it is, I just got used to it.

I probably come off the back of another one where someone was really swearing and dropping seed bombs and stuff.

So, and then I walked in, it was Alex Lowe, wasn't it?

No, he wasn't swearing, he doesn't swear.

No, I think I did.

Yeah.

Maybe I just pop some in just to kind of be edgy.

I don't know.

Anyway, I won't do that with you.

He's an old lovey, isn't he?

He went to stage school and everything when he was a kid.

So.

Yeah, yeah, he was on stage when he was like 12 or something.

He's like Bonnie Langford, isn't he?

Really?

Graham, you are way more like John Shuttleworth than I thought you would be.

Really?

It is like talking to John.

Well, that's no good because then you might want to be talking to John, but then I'd have to dress up.

Well, I kind of am.

You can play bits of John, maybe.

Yeah.

Is that you?

It's Kirsty.

We've got sound effects.

Are you hitting a keyboard?

No, I am dogminding.

Oh, I see.

So I live in Leicester.

All right.

Have we started this blinking podcast?

Yeah, we started.

Of course it has.

Ages ago.

Are you going to play a jingle or is that done?

There is a jingle at the beginning, but I won't play it for you, but I could ask you, what's your favorite jingle?

We can ask the question at the beginning.

Never done that.

Well, it's not really a favorite jingle.

It's just a jingle I remember from childhood.

Beer at home means Davenports.

That's the beer.

Lots of cheer.

Beer at home means Davenports.

Is that like a Alpine sort of soda drink delivery, but for beer?

Is that what that was?

Well, it was a home delivery business.

Yeah, I think and I guess looking back, it predates Uber and Deliveroo by about 40, no, 50 years.

Yeah.

I'm going to have to get rid of the dog, aren't I?

That's right.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, it's funny.

Oh, I can put her on my knee.

What's the dog's name?

It's such a boy.

It's Kenny.

Kenny.

Yeah.

And I've used his bark as a sound effect for Kirsty, for John's dog.

Oh, really?

I mean, the Shuttleworth keyboard has several dogs in there and a cat.

But I had a Casio keyboard, mini one, which has a woof dog beat that I've used.

Yeah.

There's nothing wrong with that.

You know, it's good.

I mean, I've got one right here.

I've got you see it just moves slightly.

I've got one that that is a Casio and that still comes with a load of preloaded.

There's a hundred sound effects on there, which my kids love, telephones and helicopters and still got the dogs and cats all still in there.

But yeah, we love all that because I didn't really even think about this until like yesterday.

Maybe I'm thinking why I was so drawn to you when I first saw you doing John Shuttleworth on TV and I'm assuming it was probably was it called Saturday Zoo?

Was that the name of it?

Or was it just Zoo?

Jonathan Ross Show?

No, it was Saturday Zoo.

Saturday Zoo because me and my mate, when we were about 15, 16, he got a Casio MT-100.

Yeah.

And within about two weeks of him getting it, we were performing in an assembly with no musical ability at all, playing out a tune.

I have the recordings and it's all like, you know, so when you turned up on that, you should have done that because that sounds really good.

I know.

Oh, do you want to hear the fill in?

I can still do the fill in.

You go like, something like that.

Yeah, that is really good.

Yeah.

I learned beatboxing from a Casio MT-100.

Yeah, I can't do that at all.

But you do much better than that.

Well, no, I think that's a real skill.

But yeah, real skills like that.

A few years ago, I used to be a guy outside Brixton Tube, who was doing that with a mic.

And yeah, it's been around a few years, but they don't, they get, what, 20p?

But they should be getting a thousand pounds for every performance.

Yeah, it's very clever, anyway.

It's very good for songwriting.

So you're doing Pigeons in Flight.

You could have been doing it that way, sort of remembering it.

You've got your instant backing track.

Exactly.

That's, yeah.

Well, I can't really follow that, Steve.

No, no, no, that's all right.

Maybe you should, when you do your editing, put that bit at the end, because I mean, that's...

Put that bit at the end.

Well, otherwise you run the risk of everyone switching off.

Yeah, because it's pulling at me.

If you leave it where it is.

Well, because it's all about you, not me.

Yeah, I know.

You shouldn't be talking about me.

But if you put it at the end, it will actually be a lovely climax.

This is the thing about you, right?

So I didn't...

What?

I'm modest.

Apologies in advance.

But I knew you as John Shuttleworth.

I didn't know that you were the same person as Jilted John.

I didn't know that.

I had no idea at the time.

And I've been looking back at your career and, you know, obviously this podcast is predominately about telly.

And I guess how we approach that is just your television appearances.

If I look for your videos on YouTube, I get the Top of the Pops appearance.

And unfortunately, we can't say who introduces you.

But I know that song, man.

And I remember that song at the time.

I definitely, definitely remember it.

And I would have been like eight, nine years old.

You were the perfect age to appreciate that song, yes.

Still called Gordon is a Moron by a lot of lazy people.

But in fact, it was Jilted John by Jilted John.

And I was on three times.

So it wasn't just one performance with a certain disgraced and dead DJ presenting it.

Yeah.

Actually, disgraced is too mild a word, isn't it?

It is too mild a word, isn't it?

What number did it get to?

If you don't mind me asking.

Number four.

Number four.

That's amazing.

In the time when records were actually making money and...

Yeah, they sold millions.

Yeah, that's incredible.

It sold half a million, just shy of...

You only need about 50,000 now to get to number one.

So that would have been a number one times over.

Yeah, that's it.

I was reflecting, actually, the other day, how sad it is that I don't know what number one is and haven't done for about five years.

Yeah, I don't think you're supposed to.

Occasionally, a record will sort of break through into your consciousness.

Like there was that shotgun...

Do you remember?

George Ezra, yeah.

Right.

Which I didn't like at all.

I heard it.

I thought this is awful.

And then did someone tell me there were 20 versions of it or something?

Is there really?

I think so, unless I've got the wrong one.

I mean, kids love it.

It plays at kids' parties a lot.

Yes.

Yeah.

Well, it's made for children.

I just don't like that expression.

But that's not in our vernacular anyway, is it?

Well, it isn't.

And I heard a very proper sounding Radio 4 presenter say it today, riding shotgun with me during the series will be...

And I thought, you twat.

You're trying to be really trendy and get down with the kids.

Yeah.

So I turned it off in disgust.

Well, it's like me.

I refuse to say Gen Z.

I say Gen Z.

I just can't do it.

Well, I don't see either.

I mean, you're obviously a fan of music big time and you were writing music.

So what was it like to be on Top of The Pops?

I mean, it must have been quite...

Did you...

I guess you mimed, right?

It was all mime in those days.

You see...

You played live.

You've just made two statements that were completely wrong.

Okay.

Good.

The second one was that, did I mime?

No, it was live.

I was kind of unique in that I sang live, and that's because I was away on holiday when they did the recording.

Because what they usually did was they did mime.

But I wasn't able to record my vocal at the recording that you had to do for the BBC.

There was this thing of switching the tapes that went on, so people ended up just miming to the record anyway.

But anyway, the other thing that got wrong was that I obviously was writing songs and loved music.

No, I hadn't written any songs before in my life.

Doesn't it show?

Jilted John was just about the, maybe the second song I had ever written.

Yeah, you still write it though.

Yeah, I know, but I'm just, it's interesting that you said, oh, you obviously wrote a lot of songs.

What makes that song interesting is that that's probably just about the first song I ever wrote.

And when I look back at that now, someone who has written a lot of songs over the years and will never get to number four again, but the structure of the song is all over the place and it's totally incorrect.

You know, it has this, starts off with the tune, loses that tune, becomes very minimal, and then has this weird coda, da da da da da da da, you know, and it just, it's odd, but I guess it works.

And who were you emulating?

I don't like to say I was emulating anyone.

I was certainly inspired by the punk scene at the time and taking the mickey out of the punk scene really, which seemed to be mainly, the stuff I was hearing on the radio was, people talk, singing like that, you know, being a bit cockney, because people have said, you know, you're from the North, why didn't you sing with the Northern accent?

Because I was taking the mickey, and most of the punk songs I was hearing had a Southern lilt, so I did the same.

Interestingly, when we did the album, Jilted John developed a Northern voice, which, and then he starts singing like that.

But you see, it was art rock, it wasn't punk rock really.

No, I don't know what it was, but it...

It's very catchy.

It's very catchy, yeah, absolutely.

And of its time, but still memorable.

And I know that that song is known by just about everyone, you know, of a certain age.

And even young people now.

Just to be clear, in this upcoming section, we are talking about the music he made under the name John Shuttleworth, his comedy character, not Jilted John.

When I was into what I would call, I hope I'm not being rude by saying, Hey Day, what was the Yamaha Year's album?

Around that time, I mean, it's so funny, right?

Because when that came out, I just remember listening to that all the time, on my Walkman, as it would have been, or Discman, probably.

I'd actually worked for Yamaha previously, just very, yeah, really briefly.

I'll tell you the story, because you might get kicked out of it.

In early 1995, they wanted somebody to work in Harrods in the music department to sell Yamaha keyboards, right?

Wow.

And I was a guitarist, but I didn't really know how to play.

I could play some keys, but I couldn't play piano.

But I went for the job anyway, you know, I edited out a swear word there, I think.

So basically, I got into the interview process, I got taken to Milton Keynes, to the Yamaha factory, and they took me in this room and they showed me all these keyboards and pianos and organs where you play the bass notes with your feet.

And the guy was like, would you like me to show?

I said, no, no, just leave me with it.

And I was there with all these prototypes of Yamaha keyboards, PS, whatever.

And he never heard me play, he never saw me touch the keys.

And I was thinking, I hope he doesn't come in, because I can't play these things.

But I still went for the job anyway, and I got the job.

So then I had to go to my mate's house in Peterborough and get him to teach me piano, like as quickly as possible.

But I used to sell Yamaha keyboards in Harrods.

And you know, those Clavinova ones where you put the discs in and they'd like play Elton John.

Yes.

Yeah, those ones.

So you learned how to put a disc into a slot?

No, I learned...

No, no, no.

I was a guitarist, so I just transposed into...

I was able...

I taught myself, I think it was Life on Mars, Elton John song, but I can't remember which one.

And I would only play those songs.

Did you get invited to Mohammed's house in South of France?

No, no, no.

But he did peruse the aisles now and again.

And whenever he did, people would, you know...

They used to sort of do the army thing, and they'd line us up and check our ties were sort of straight, and our nails were clean and our hair was done.

Yeah, it was horrible.

It was horrible.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, I've still got the keyboard that I was given by Yamaha.

Nice.

Because my agent approached them.

Yeah.

And said, look, we're using Yamaha keyboards.

Would you like to sponsor us, et cetera?

And they said no, but they sent us a keyboard.

It's a bit like when I did this song Mutiny Over the Bounty.

Yeah.

Mars of Slough.

You've Really Done It Now.

You know, about the cardboard strip.

Yeah.

Or cardboard tray.

It is really.

It's just I said strip because it seemed to rhyme with so many things.

I suddenly turned up at a gig, Crew Lyceum, and there were two gross of bounty bars waiting for me on a pallet.

Tell me they were dark chocolate.

They were a mix.

One big bundle was milk and one was plain.

Yeah, that was a freebie and they're all in my tummy now.

How long did it take you to eat them?

My kids used to take them to school for their lunch boxes.

I think those things are very dangerous because when I was a kid, well, you're in Leicester, so that's the Walker's Factory, right?

Did they make Wotsits?

I think they made Wotsits.

I don't know because I've only been in Leicester for four years.

Oh, well, back in the day, I had an uncle who went out with a woman who worked for that company and he gave me a big box of Wotsits when I was about 11 or 12, 48 packets.

And my nan and granddad, who I was living with, let me keep them in my bedroom on top of the wardrobe.

And how long do you think that box lasted?

I don't know.

How long?

A weekend.

OK.

My fingers were like, I looked like a sort of middle-aged smoker by Monday.

But you could do that.

That's why you're a mate.

That's why Heaven 17 Guy is probably doing his podcast, because he can get a sponsorship, get some freebies.

Yes, possibly.

Also, well, I did mention Martin Ware.

It was the last podcast I did.

And he just sort of knows everybody in the business.

Yeah.

And I don't, you see.

I briefly rub shoulders with people like Nick Hayward or Mary Wilson.

How about Howard Jones?

I love Howard.

No, he wouldn't come on the programme.

We didn't get a reply from him.

But, you know, I met Chas.

Chas of Dames.

Chas and Dave.

He was great.

Sir Patrick Moore.

Wendy Craig.

I've met them all, actually.

These are all proper John Shuttleworth references.

Well, they're people that I liked and I wanted them on the show.

Yeah.

And like you say, I think the Yamaha years, that was 97.

That was the heyday.

I loved that time.

Yeah.

I'd worked, you know, we're coming up to the 40th anniversary.

Am I allowed to plug my own show?

Yeah, of course, man.

Well, currently, I'm doing that thing of just at the side of the pool, dipping my toe in and it's really cold.

But I have to dive in really.

Get rehearsing for Raise the Oof.

Yeah.

Which, you know, it's one of those titles.

I have to come up with a title that I think is clever.

It's not the cleverest, but I suppose it's a celebration of 40 years of John Shuttleworth, because I created the character in 85.

And when we do the tour in early 25, it will be 40 years.

People are amazed at that, it is 40 years.

So Raise The Roof, I guess, is what John's trying to say.

But Ken, as usual, cocks up the title, hastily typing it out on an old typewriter, has put Raise The Oof.

But that's handy because John happens to say oof quite a lot.

Oh yeah, of course.

Yeah.

But you know, I've had titles like The Minotaur and other mythological creatures.

One Foot in the Gravy.

Yeah.

That's a great one.

2000 and John.

That was a good one.

2000 and John.

Like that.

Yeah.

This one was going to be called The Beery Vest of John Shuttleworth.

Oh yes.

Yeah.

You have to think for a second.

That's nice.

That's nice.

I like that.

Yeah.

Well, I may do that next then.

That could be the album, a compilation album.

It could be.

Yeah.

Hey, I think you're right there.

Yeah, I suppose.

But John, you see, when he gets a title, because he's a little bit spurgic, probably like myself, he feels he has to conform.

He has to honor the title, you know?

So he would come on stage in a beery vest, but like Rob Seanes, you know?

Yeah, the string vest.

I've got to be a bit slobby, which is not my nature, Steve.

No, it's not.

Now, see, look, I'm getting excited about a tour that isn't even happening.

Get excited about the tour you're about to do, Graham.

Raise the oof.

I haven't really got a plot yet, but that's what I need to work on.

Yeah, so that's why I wanted to talk to you, to get some ideas from you.

Well, I mean, I just did an Edinburgh show in August, and I got to June and it still wasn't completely written.

I was just pacing around the room.

So sometimes it is a bit last minute, but you've got so much to draw upon.

Well, yeah, it can be a lot of old stuff, obviously.

A lot of old songs that I can't get away with not playing Two Margarines, Can't Go Back To Savory Now, Why Reg, Pigeon's In Flight, etc.

My Wife Died in 1970, my favorite.

Is it?

Well, yeah, I just know.

I've just known that song.

Yeah.

It's just that if someone said, name a John Shuttleworth song, that's the first one I think of.

But tell me this then, Steve, how do I perform that now with the lyric like, My Wife Died in 1970?

Did John have a child bride and was a little boy himself?

Well, that's the thing, yeah.

Because you're the age of the character now, I guess, rather than like in 93 when you first...

Yeah, John's younger than me now.

I'm 65.

John's about 60.

Yeah.

So that means his wife would have died when he was about five.

So do I say a song is actually about the death of a colleague's wife, an ex-colleague from Comet, you know?

These are the problems because all the references are so perfect for...

It's like the sort of Alan Partridge problem, isn't it?

You've both grown into the age of your characters and the references are still funny because they are 70s or...

Like, you know, the fact that you mention Martin Ware in Heaven 17, it's just that is something I could imagine Alan Partridge saying, Oh, Heaven 17, you know, you can just imagine.

That's something he would mention, do you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah.

So you can't change the references.

You can't suddenly go, Oh, she died in 1990.

No, but you see, that's a different thing because the reference to Heaven 17, John can still do and he can still talk about the Nolans and Leo Sayer.

Leo Sayer is on my board.

I met Leo once and it's funny, sorry.

Well, I met him once as well.

I really wanted to say I've met him twice, but I've only met him once.

He's got a key way of talking.

He's a lovely man, totally dominated the control room.

He was on my program, Radio Shuttleworth as a guest.

He came in, little Leo, all five foot five of him.

Absolutely dominated for two hours.

Really?

In a nice way though, just really, all right guys, all right fellas, what are we going to do then?

Okay.

Yeah, that's fine.

And then sang this beautiful harmony on my song, Dandelion and Burdock, which interestingly, Heaven 17 then covered on John Shuttleworth's lounge music.

And interestingly as well was delivered by the Alpine Lorry to my house every Saturday.

Dandelion and Burdock, they used to drink that, didn't they?

Yes, they did.

The fizzy drinks lorries.

Nice call back to doorstep deliveries.

But you know, this is a dial, you know, you've raised a thorny issue, how do I do My Wife Died in 1970?

That's true.

Because 1990, please, no, it didn't work.

But I have the same problem with my kids, how old are Darren and Karen?

They've aged about five years in 20 years.

But that could just be the joke, right?

No, you're showing complete lack of method acting here.

Talking of collabs, I'm a big fan of Count Arthur, and that was a nice little...

That was a nice little...

Dangerous talk.

No, is it dangerous?

No, it's just that...

No, I love Count Arthur myself as well.

You definitely seem to inhabit the same universe.

If it was a Marvel and DC universe or whatever, you would definitely exist in both, and that's what I liked.

Well, and that's why our collaboration, I think, was so celebrated by people.

Did you see us on...

I was in Count Arthur's...

Sorry, John Shuttleworth was in Count Arthur's TV program.

Yeah, yeah, I watched every episode.

And it worked, and I watched it again recently, just popped up...

No, it didn't just pop up, I looked for it.

I searched for it, because I wanted to.

Is it still on the iPlayer?

And I thought, yeah, this works.

And all the sort of messages on YouTube, oh, you must do something together, yeah?

Why not?

Well, yeah, you know, like the 80s bands that we keep mentioning, they go on these sort of 80s tours, right?

With like Catch a Goo Goo and Heaven's 17.

Yes, yeah.

John Shuttleworth and Count Arthur.

I did one of those, Rewind, I did one with Heaven's 17.

Did you?

And Glenn Matlock, you know, he was an incongruity because it was 1980s, but I did Jilted John, but that's 70s, so.

Who are the 70s lot that are going around?

They're probably all in prison.

No, 80s is better, I think.

That's something I want to say.

So you did this album called Love of the Hacienda and in your own name, were you doing comedy then?

Because you did Jilted John, it was comedic.

How did you take that swerve?

Well, there was no swerve, really.

I was at drama school when I did Jilted John.

I went back to drama school, turning down the chance to be in Godspell.

No one could have been in Godspell.

I'd have had to grow my hair and I didn't want to do that because I was a punk.

Actually, I was one of those northern punks that, remember the Buzzcocks?

They just were scruffy and like the undertones.

I've shaved hair, you had a sort of urchin look, an unkempt look, which I like.

A tie that was, you know, at a funny angle and not done up.

Like all the kids at school.

Yeah, that's it.

That was the kind of look.

But for Jilted John, I had a little quilted anorak to make him look a bit nerdy.

Yeah.

So would you say Jilted John was a comedic character as well then?

Well, obviously, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

When I graduated from drama school and started acting, and I was casting funny things on the whole, did the odd, serious thing.

But I guess he had a bit tall and gangly and slightly funny face.

So I ended up maybe a bit of comic timing.

So I did acting for five years, but the work was drying up.

And at the same time, I was writing songs like there's no tomorrow.

I can even remember being in the wings of a theater about to go on.

I'd be sort of honing a lyric in my head, which is not great for someone trying to remember their lines.

You know, that's why when I created Shuttleworth in 85, it was a kind of release and it made perfect sense because I was creating a musical character that was a character that required acting.

Yeah.

But I was writing music.

So, yeah, it's just that John took a long time to develop, which may account for hopefully his depth and the big world that he...

It's a little worldy in habits, but it's kind of drawn quite vividly and with lots of shading.

When was his first TV appearance then?

Was it 1993 or was it before that?

It was before that.

I was thinking it was 1990 or 1991 when I was on something called the Paradise Club, which was a drama starring Leslie Grantham.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, and I played a talent contestant.

Oh, right.

And that was a part got for me by the late and great Chris Phipps, who was a producer on the Tube for many years and a great interviewer.

And I'm going to impersonate him now because this is exactly how he spanked Steve.

And I don't know if you know my other character, Brian Appleton.

With Chris's blessing, I gave Chris's voice to Brian Appleton.

It has a wonderful tragic tone.

Do you not think it's like something awful has just happened?

Yeah.

I imagine a little cloud of melancholy hanging over his head all the time.

It's raining on top of his head.

I started doing that in about 1997, 1998, because I was being encouraged to develop other characters.

Probably, you know, with one eye, Steve Coogan who's doing all these other characters with great success.

So I tried to do another character with only partial success.

And, you know, I'm proud of what I did.

There's some good shows, particularly something called Let's Look At Sound, which was a live show where I had a tape recorder and I had to slow down the tape 64 times.

And turn a recording of a nose blow into a relaxation tape where you can hear an Amazonian rain forest.

That's what it sounds like when you slow it down 64 times because you get the accumulated tapers sounds like gentle rain.

Oh, Graham, you need to get on TikTok and get John doing ASMR.

What's that mean?

You know where people just get the microphone, they're going...

Oh, I know what you mean.

Yeah, my girlfriend likes that.

Sort of Japanese girls eating yogurt and things.

Well, I don't think it has to be...

Sorry, I just came into my house.

I was thinking more like scratching a comb, but yeah, you go for whatever you want to hear.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, but I mean, it's not for misophonics, but it's...

Yeah, I mean, I could see that.

I could see him having a resurgence doing that.

I do resist all the modern media, I must say.

People keep saying, oh, I'll get John on TikTok and I just do the bare minimum because I am old school.

Proudly so.

It's a whole thing though, man.

It's exhausting.

It is exhausting.

Well, when you get...

Have you got sponsorship?

No, we don't have sponsorship yet, no.

I keep burning all my possible sponsors by slagging them off.

By the way, can I just say, I hope you're not going to cut my dog out.

I'm not cutting the dog out.

No, because he's been very considerate and he's only barked in the gaps.

No, no, I'm not cutting him out.

Have you noticed?

Yeah, some of the earlier episodes, a lot of editing.

These days, I'm trying to go for the Stephen Bartlett.

A lot less editing, no mention of Huell though.

So, you know, try and go for a kind of...

But also maybe not making them too long, because I think, you know, when it goes over an hour, I think it can start to get a bit tiring for the listener.

I think so too.

So why are we up to now?

Well, at this point, if the listeners are listening, it's 37 minutes in, but this will be chopped off.

It feels like an hour.

I thought the hour was up.

No, no, it will probably be only 20 minutes in at this point.

Well, I don't think you should, you see.

I think the whole point about podcasts probably is that they shouldn't be edited, because I think the strength of a good podcast is that, you know, it's different from a radio program, which is trying to grab everybody, isn't it?

But the thing about a podcast is you've come to that sort of, because you're a bit bored.

Well, presumably you've come to it because you like either the person who's doing the podcasting, or you like the guest, or you're curious about the guest.

Yeah, of course.

So it's more immersive, isn't it?

Yeah.

So I think editing is a bit trickier.

I checked something today, which was, when did I ask you to come on this podcast?

Now, this is, what is it?

18th of October, 2024, June, 2023.

So we only launched in May, 2023.

So you're always pretty much up there.

Oh, I know.

That's the only reason I'm doing it, because I feel sorry for you, because you keep pestering me.

I'm not pestering you.

Well, no, I'll be honest, Steve, because I'm doing this really partly because you seem a nice guy and you've approached me very politely several times.

And I've actually been quite rude and blunt in some of my replies.

But the reason I'm doing it is because partly of that, and also I need some practice because I've got this tour coming up, and I'm going to have to do some more podcasts.

You're going to have to do really serious ones.

Yeah, well that's it.

And I thought, well, it doesn't really matter what I say in this one.

Say what you like.

You want to throw a swear word in here, just one, just for fun?

Oh, no, I can't.

You can't do it.

You haven't got it in you.

Does John swear?

No.

John doesn't swear, does he?

No, no, he doesn't.

Occasionally, I've wanted to, particularly years ago when I had, if I'd have a bad gig and there was some horrible punter that was, you know, because John could only deal with them in a kind of polite way.

Oof, exactly.

Do you interrupt your parents when they're talking, lad?

No.

Keep quiet.

I remember I said that once.

That riled them further.

But...

So does John treat the audience, even if it's a massive theatre, like it's a working men's club in his mind?

That's a good question.

I don't know.

It's a kind of slight suspension of disbelief, isn't it?

Because when I play a Shuttleworth gig, I've got a theatre hopefully full, or nearly full of really engaged people who are chuckling away.

John can't acknowledge that laughter because in his world and in his own eyes, he's an unemployed failing or failed singer-songwriter who can't even get a booking or struggles to get a booking at the local hospice.

And then it's only for petrol money only.

So, you know, there's a suspension of disbelief on the audience's part, which makes it a piece of theatre, which I think also people then feel quite comfortable with because they know that there's a very intelligent, sassy man behind the character who can comment on things that are also going on.

But yeah, it's a bit confusing sometimes for myself.

But with the heckle, yeah, the worst heckles actually are when people are laughing too much, which sounds odd.

But I've had the odd gig where it's usually a drunk person who is laughing and that can shut an audience up.

A specific laugh that you just singles out, yeah.

I mean, I think any kind of heckling is a cry for attention, isn't it?

Yeah.

When I go to comedy gigs and it's kind of not that funny and there's someone really barely laughing, it doesn't even look funny.

What are you laughing at?

And comedians hate it because you've lost them, because everyone is concentrating on the person that's laughing.

Like being on a train with someone on their phone, on the loud speaker.

It's horrible.

Oh, they should all be shot.

Yeah.

I know.

I've got a little favor to ask you.

Could you please follow us on social media?

And if you've got time, leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get them.

It all helps drive traffic back to the podcast.

But for now, let's get back to the current episode of Television Times podcast.

John could do a podcast.

Well, here we go.

Breaking news.

I'm going to as well.

That's another reason I wanted to do this because I've realized that anybody can do a podcast and indeed, anybody does, not looking at you.

But no, because I think you're good.

There's so many disses.

It's hilarious.

No, but it's true, is there?

And it's mainly blokes, let's be honest.

White blokes.

Blokes of a certain age.

Middle-aged man with a podcast.

Who got a good mic, you know, and I see you've got a nice road mic stand.

Yeah.

It's a jaunty angle.

I got myself a little swivel mic stand.

Yeah, I got that about a year in when I realized I needed it.

Kenny, that's enough.

I'll let you out very soon.

When the nice gentleman has let us go, I will put you in the garden.

All right?

Sorry, carry on.

So there was something I want before I forget.

You worked for Chapel Music.

This is kind of a vaguely serious question.

Is that true?

I had a contract with them to write some songs.

Yeah.

I thought you were like hired as a songwriter for their label or something like that.

Well, I got a publishing deal.

My obligation to them was to come up with 10 or 12 songs in a year.

And in return for that, I got an advance, which of course I never recouped because I didn't have any success at all.

They took upon something and it failed.

So you would listen to demos that came in from other people though?

Right.

Yes.

So you're talking about the inspiration behind John Shuttleworth.

What year would it have been?

That's just my quick question.

Well, I signed a publishing deal in I think 85 or 86, which was on the back of my cult success of Love At The Hacienda, my indie album, which got me a songwriting deal and I had a guitar.

I was doing a few gigs as myself, Graham Fellows, played the Rock Garden in London.

I supported the House Martins in some festival in Scunthorpe, I think, as you can remember.

Yeah, really weird little stuff like that.

But on the very day I signed my publishing deal, the very day I created John Shuttleworth, the 30th of June, 85.

And the reason I did that is that on the day I signed, I was maybe relaxing having a drink in the A&R man's office and he put on a tape of really bad demos to make everyone laugh.

And this is something they did.

They collected these demos from punters like John Shuttleworth, where they weren't very good.

But there was something very engaging about these demos.

Real life people who were desperate to get a deal.

But you could hear...

Do you know who some of those people were?

Me and my friend, because we used to drop cassettes into chapel music in 1995 and 1996 under the pseudonym of Wolfgang.

A terrible band with a wolf on the front.

And all the songs were recorded on Casio keyboards.

Well, I don't remember Wolfgang, but there was a wonderful woman called Di Farrelly, who was actually very judge.

She was quite pompous and said, Hello, Di Farrelly here again.

Now, I've never written a country music song before, but I was encouraged to do so by a friend called Ray Castle from Brighton.

He's encouraged me to write a country and western song.

So here we go.

I've had a stab at it.

See what you think.

Then she played this awful country and western song.

But that sort of confidence.

Yeah.

It was very funny.

I suppose I give them a bit that's a genre.

The next song employs quite an urgent beat.

Some people may find the lyric little disquieting.

It's adopting, I guess, that sort of professional style of a DJ or something.

Then it's bathos because what follows it is rubbish, I suppose.

Except the problem with John is that I started off with rubbish songs, but you can't do rubbish songs forever.

You have to start writing clever songs or songs that work on several levels.

It's the solos, man.

It's those little keyboard solos with definitely the wrong sound.

Yeah.

Also losing confidence in the song.

That's really fun.

Like when you just start...

Yes, that works, doesn't it?

It works supremely well.

I do that as much as I can, but I don't place it.

What I do is I actually forget words because I've got a dreadful memory, or I can't find the chords, I've forgotten the chords, or the organs, because I've got about three of them and they're all quite old.

They start to malfunction, possibly if the room's too warm or something.

And then the chords don't play properly and I go, oh no, I've stopped that one, I've lost confidence.

So it's a real thing sometimes.

But the audience love it and they think it's all planned and...

That's great.

What have you done to your hand?

I notice when you raise your hand.

I don't know.

I think it's editing podcast all day.

No, I hit my, you know, like at the bottom of the banister of our house, there's a big sort of wooden top to it.

And I just whacked my elbow on it.

And it seems to have created a shooting pain that's causing pain in the top of my hand.

There we go.

I guess it's the beginning of the end.

But your elbow's all right.

No, it's a bit sore.

Okay.

But I forgot about it.

And a few days later I was going, what the fuck, what the...

No, no, no.

Okay, leave it, leave it.

What the fuck's wrong with my hand?

No, listen, mate, that's where you can say what the fuck.

Okay.

Because it's spontaneous.

Yeah, okay.

I haven't used this in a while.

There's no reason for it, but it hasn't been on the pod for ages, that.

So because we've done 50 minutes on this third try, should we do a couple of format questions just for laugh?

Yeah, sure.

Yeah, okay.

So this is interesting considering your character work.

Which TV character, not one of your own, would you like to embody for 24 hours?

So even if it's fictional, you would be that person in real life.

Probably Randall and Hopkirk, the one that's deceased.

The one that's deceased?

Yeah, because it could, you know, go into girls' bedrooms and...

Oh, easy now.

I know.

Can you edit that out, please?

Edit that out.

Cut that.

Do you want me to edit it out, really?

No, but honestly, I didn't prepare that.

I just, because you had so many questions, I just...

Girls of your own age at the same age that you were at the time.

Yeah, but see what pops into your head.

No, it's just the idea of being invisible, because he's invisible, isn't he?

So for 24 hours to be invisible would be amazing.

Yeah, what would you do?

Apart from going to girls' bedrooms?

Yeah, what would any red blooded male do apart from that?

Steal?

No, you'd steal money.

You'd go into a bank and...

But I can't get the money, can I?

You need a card.

It's beginning to sound like it wouldn't be much fun.

No, it might not be.

Waiting for a bus, bus goes by.

Maybe there's not much you can do.

Well, you could stand in front of the bus and it could run you over and you wouldn't feel anything.

Remember the Invisible Man with David McCallum?

I used to love that.

That was one I liked.

Well, I could be him then.

I've just thought of another one.

Maybe I wouldn't mind it being one of the Walton.

Which one?

Double names.

Good night.

Probably Grandpa, he didn't have to do anything.

He just swanned around in his very clean dungarees.

Looked like he didn't do any work.

I don't remember the Walton's as much as I remember the other one, The Little House on the Prairie.

Right.

Well, I loved those books.

I grew up, I'm the right age when they came out, I think in the 60s and I devoured the whole set.

I didn't even know they were books.

Maybe you could do a John Shuttleworth does the music for Little House on the Prairie musical.

Yeah.

If that's what you're into.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I'm winding the character down.

You could kill him off.

Hang on.

That phone should be on silent.

No, that's great.

That is the perfect...

Can I just take this?

Links and all that and websites are totally irrelevant now, aren't they?

Because all you do is you put in the name of the person and you put tour or something and then it all comes up.

I'm surprised the WW thing is still going.

John wrote a song about that, which I did on a radio show.

I don't know that one.

Called WWW.

Oh yeah.

You know, and it was complaining that people, mainly on radio shows, aren't saying WWW anymore.

Yeah.

And John would say, well, how do we know?

I miss the sound.

Is it my lyrics book?

Let's see.

Probably.

So Graham is going through his little notebook.

Those three little letters.

I miss the sound.

My lips going round.

Those three little letters are trying to say WWW.

Anyway, does it have a B side called HTTPS colon double slash?

It should do.

Should do, shouldn't it?

When did you first send an email?

I know the email address was very long, wasn't it?

It was all that fastnet you put in this long fastnet.

Oh, right.

So it would be early 90s.

Early 90s?

Probably.

Didn't come out then, did it?

Oh, mid 90s?

I don't know.

I sent my first one in 1999.

Anyway, boring.

Back to you.

So let's ask a couple more format questions and then we'll end it.

So why don't you give me a number this time?

Seven.

Seven.

A TV show that's an embarrassing, guilty pleasure.

Not that I believe in the word guilt for that.

I've got a lot of those actually.

And they change all the time.

A few weeks ago, a few months ago, it was Death in Paradise.

Do you know that one?

I've never seen it, but there's a lot of them.

There's a lot of episodes.

With the guy, he's in a lot of things.

John always says he looks like a scene of Ghost.

You know what I mean?

Isn't Steve Pemberton in it now?

Oh, I've just been working with Steve Pemberton on a sitcom.

Have you?

It's called The Power of Parker, Series 2.

I play a character called Des.

I've heard of The Power of Parker.

Yeah, well, I'm in Episode 1, Series 2.

I kept that quiet, didn't I?

Yeah, well done.

And that's out soon, is it?

Well, I don't know.

I literally just, it's just you mentioned Steve Pemberton.

But no, I don't.

Anyway, that's one of my guilty pleasures.

What's the other guilty pleasure?

Something like Countdown, you know?

Countdown.

Not Countdown.

I can't stand Countdown.

No, the other one with Bradley, Bradley Walsh.

The Chase.

The Chase.

Everyone loves The Chase.

Never seen it.

What's The Chase about?

I do a podcast about totally never seen The Chase.

Okay.

Well, it's just easy questions that you can answer.

That is not correct.

Ask The Chaser.

Back to The Chaser.

No, that is not correct.

For you, The Chase is over.

That's my very bad impression of Bradley Walsh.

Bradley, I knew you said Bradley Cooper.

So you're not a reality guy.

You're not watching Any of That Trash.

No, I mean, anything is, I find programs quite interesting.

Having made a few myself, I sort of go, you know, you're looking behind the program and you're thinking about, oh, I wonder how long they spent writing that or what the budget for that was.

Did they have a dedicated boom operator?

Because I did Celebrity Antiques Roadshow as John and I couldn't believe it.

The cameraman was the sound man and the lighting man.

Oh really?

God, he worked like a Trojan.

Unbelievable.

He was brilliant and it looks fine.

Yeah.

But 20, 30 years ago, that would have been four or five people doing those jobs.

It's terrible actually because it's just cost-cutting.

But I used to work in theater and I used to do sound for shows and plays and stuff.

Was that after Yamaha or before?

It was after Yamaha.

Okay.

I'm surprised you managed to work again after working in Harrods for Yamaha.

I know.

I actually used to tell people, and no disrespect to Yamaha, I used to tell people go to the Roland guys, they've got better keyboards.

But yeah, I did plays and stuff and then I worked for Darren Brown for a while on his tour.

Did you?

I did his sound and I didn't know at the time, but on the first venue, they put a lighting desk next to me.

I'm like, why is that there?

Who's the operator?

And they're like, you.

I'm not a lighting guy.

So I had to do both.

What?

So I trained one hand to do, I think my right hand was sound and my left hand was lighting.

So I just go through the script and just do this to sort of get the muscle memory in.

Nightmare.

What?

And you toured around with Darren Brown or was it just?

Yeah, I did three tours and a couple of West Ends with him.

Well, you've kept that one quiet.

I mean, that's an amazing accolade.

That should be on your CV.

I think it is on my CV, but I don't do that anymore.

I walked away from that world.

And there we are.

That's my one regret, actually, and I'm 65 and I haven't got, apart from Shuttleworth and a couple of solo albums, I think I ain't got much to show for it.

I think I should have directed a few plays.

I should have done a couple of sort of TV dramas.

I mean, I've made three films now.

Sorry, just bang the mic.

Leave that one in.

Leave that one in.

I was doing a little hand gesture, for no apparent reason.

But yeah, that is a bit of a regret.

Maybe it's not too late.

Maybe I could...

It's never too late.

How can it be too late?

The age doesn't mean anything anymore.

When you were a kid, what was the 65 year old man like?

A little cap on his little stick and everything?

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, yeah, that's why the pension age was so low, wasn't it?

Because they'd retire, live a year and then die.

Yeah, my granddad did that, died at 67, which is ridiculously young.

Yeah, I had a granddad died at 67, one at 69.

He lived a ripe old age, didn't he?

Well, what they don't tell you is, you know, you got the average age.

This is something that made me feel better recently.

Because when you have kids, obviously, you're always thinking about, oh, what age will I be when they have to deal with that?

Although I think the average age for a guy now is in the 80s, right, early 80s.

If you get to 40, the average goes up.

Yes.

Because the average age encompasses all the people that die before 40.

Indeed, yeah.

So, you know.

The dangerous sports blokes, yeah.

Yeah, the ones that jump off of mountains with a carpet or something.

I think my age expectancy now has gone up.

Now I'm 65.

I could see 80.

Oh, definitely see 80.

Well, hopefully, yeah.

Yeah, I reckon.

There's 80 year old people going for presidencies.

I think it's fine.

It's a different world now.

So, Graham, who was your first TV crash?

Well, it was probably the Monkees.

It was just a sort of schoolboy, returnal crush.

Yeah.

I just fell in love with the Monkees.

I thought they were so sweet and I wanted to hang out with them.

Mid 60s, I'd say that was.

Yeah.

Yeah, because I was just a bit too young for the Beatles to have the Beatles mania thing, you know.

Yeah.

My older sisters were into that.

And the Monkees was repeated because I saw that as a kid.

It was on all the time, like with The Witch and all those shows.

So yeah, The Witch was from 20 years before, wasn't it?

Yeah.

Because I saw the repeats of that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Did you have a crush on them?

Elizabeth Montgomery.

Well, I was going to say on the Monkees, but yeah, she was quite sweet, wasn't she?

The way she wiggled her nose.

Yes.

It was wonderful.

It was good.

It was good stuff.

On TV.

I can't really think.

I must have had a crush on someone.

I'm going to say Tabitha from The Witch.

That was her character name, wasn't it?

Tabitha.

Yeah.

Was the cat called Tabitha?

I don't know who's called Tabitha.

We're working out.

Maybe the show should be called Tabitha.

That's what they'll do.

You know, they'll do a reimagining for Disney or something or Marvel, and it will just be called Tabitha and it will be an Apple TV series or something.

Yeah.

Well, Graham, it's been wonderful talking to you.

I'm going to edit that together in some way or form.

Okay.

But thank you for coming on Television Times because it's been a long time coming and you were honestly one of my first top 10 guests who I really wanted to speak to and you were there.

Oh, bless you.

And you know that.

So thank you so much for coming on.

It was really fun.

Yeah, because initially you were thinking about doing this podcast backstage.

I don't know how Alex Lowe does it, to be honest.

I mean, he's a cool customer because if I've got a show, I'm just like, yeah, yeah.

You know, it's so much to do.

It's setting up the stage and obviously you will need some tech time to get your hardly working keyboards working.

Yeah, I've just bought another one, actually.

I've got four now, but because they're essentially, as you know, as an ex-Yamaha demonstrator, that they're toys for kids, really.

Yeah, those early ones.

Mini keys and I've had mine for nearly 30 years.

I mean, it's pretty good.

Well, the funny thing when I was in their warehouse was that they had, I should have said this, I'll say now, I'm still recording.

When I was basically testing out all the keyboards, there was this giant pile of keyboards, like in a pile, like they were going to burn them.

And I said, what's that?

And they went, oh, they're all the prototypes.

We have to destroy them.

I said, what do you mean destroy them?

Can I have one?

They went, no, you really can't.

I've never wanted to steal anything so much in my life, but they destroy them.

Why did they destroy them?

No idea.

Is it a prototype of something that doesn't get made?

It could be a prototype of something that did.

I really don't know.

But they just used to have these, there was at least 20 keyboards, all different shapes and sizes, and a big pile to be smashed to pieces.

Oh, and that makes me think of who killed the electric car.

Yeah.

Do you know about that?

When the cars were crushed in California?

I read the book, yeah.

Yeah, I've seen the film.

It's not commonly known, but that should be repeated, primetime BBC One, so everyone can see.

30 years ago, they had perfectly functioning electric cars with a huge range, and they had interviewed someone, some engineer said, oh yeah, the range of the electric cars, it could be 500 miles.

Yeah.

But we're not allowed to do that yet.

Yeah, it's political.

That's exactly what people say, because in America, obviously, the vast distances between cities and it being the most automotive country of all, they cannot afford to let people know that they could actually drive 600 miles on one charge.

But there we are.

These things are all, you know, if you want to get down that road, I had a funny thing happen to me this week where Newcastle Council put a thing through my door that said, we're changing the way we do recycling.

You've got to put this one in this box, and it's really keeping me busy.

And I'm up for recycling.

It's fine.

But then I also read that every time Elon Musk sends a rocket into space, it burns 700,000 tons of kerosene a second, which made me think, probably doesn't matter where I put that carton.

No, it does, because that's the argument that people use, isn't it?

Educate me why.

Well, because people will say, what's the point to be recycling when Elon Musk is burning his rockets?

If everyone had that attitude, then nothing would be recycled.

I still do it, but it just makes me wonder, could he stop doing that then?

Yeah, I mean, we can only hope that he will, or that he just dies in his sleep.

I don't like the man at all.

You're happy to leave that in?

Yeah, I don't like him.

Well, I'll leave that one there.

That's a great point of ending.

Thank you very much.

Do you think you'll get a contract out on me?

Who?

Muskie.

No, just don't say anything about Putin.

You'll be fine.

Don't touch the door handles.

Don't hang around on balconies.

No, I mean, yeah, let's not get on to Putin.

No, let's not.

I'll say goodbye.

Steve, great pleasure.

Thank you for having me on.

Thank you, Graham.

Can I get a goodbye from John as well, please?

Hang on one second.

John?

Yes?

Steve wants to say goodbye to you.

Oh, right.

Hello.

Hi, John.

Steve.

Hello, are you all right?

Yeah, I'm good, man.

I'm good.

Yeah.

I just wanted to say thanks for appearing on this podcast.

I really appreciate it so much.

Big fan, big fan.

But I didn't.

I wasn't allowed to.

Graham wouldn't let me be on the show.

Yeah, I mean, he did hog it a little bit.

And I'd have loved to have done it.

Well, maybe another time.

Maybe another time.

You can bring the Yamaha keyboard with you.

Yes, I will.

Can I be on it as well?

No, Ken, you've not been asked because you haven't.

It's just me.

Well, Graham's very generously given me a couple of tickets for the time.

So I'll see you in Newcastle next year.

Hi, Steve.

Ken here.

Hi, Ken.

How's it going?

Yeah.

Ken, please.

Bye, John.

Yeah.

Bye, then.

Thanks, John.

Thanks, Graham.

Cheers.

Yeah.

Cheers.

Bye.

That was me talking to Graham Fellows.

I loved that episode, and I absolutely adored it.

It was so much fun.

And I loved meeting John Shuttleworth at the end.

What could cap it off better than that, eh?

So whatever you do, check it out online.

Graham's out on tour with John Shuttleworth as we speak.

So be sure to get tickets for that, and check out all his stuff online.

He's got a website and all of the relevant links for the Butler's Podcast.

But now to today's outro track.

Right, today's outro track.

Obviously, it's not gonna be a song of mine.

How could I do that when I have such a talent on the podcast?

And Graham let me pick any song of his to put at the end of this podcast episode.

And I had to go with the one that was discussed, didn't I?

My Wife Died in 1970 by John Shuttleworth.

I just had to.

I love it.

It makes me laugh every single time.

So let's just play it.

So here it is.

John Shuttleworth, My Wife Died in 1970 is the opening track of his album, The Yamaha Years.

I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did.

That was so funny.

Anyway, I hope you liked my chat with Graham, and I hope you liked his song, and we will be back again next week with another episode.

I'm laughing, I'm laughing, I can't stop.

Anyway, okay, see you next time.

Look into my eyes.

Tell all your friends about this podcast.