Chelsea Birkby: Magic, Milton Keynes & the Comedy of Not Knowing

Good afternoon, good morning, good evening, Screen Rats, and welcome to another episode of Television Times.

Now, I've been playing with AI a little bit.

Everyone's scared of AI.

We've all seen Terminator 2.

Everybody expects it all to go wrong.

But I've been enjoying certain aspects of it, so much so that it feels a bit weird now to like hit Google and type in some whatever.

I've used Gemini, which is the Google one, and ChatGPT loads for help with writing show notes.

It takes a bit of the time out of that.

But I heard via another podcast about this weird, I'm not going to name it, but there's a program where you can upload a text and turn it into a sort of AI podcast, right, where these two voices just analyze whatever, you know, you've uploaded.

So I thought, what better thing to do for me, just for the crack, is to upload my second book.

Now, my second book, it's got two titles.

It hasn't been released yet.

You Shot My Dog and I Love You is the first book.

The second book is either called The Blackguard or Cauliflower Kings and Queens.

I haven't quite picked the title yet.

It's not completely finished.

I started writing it in the pandemic, but like all things, I didn't manage to get that one published because the publisher, to all intents and purposes, kind of stopped operating.

So I'm back to square one with that.

So basically, I go to this site and I suck in the PDF of the book as it is now, the second book and I hit a button and within two minutes, this podcast appears and it's like two American people chatting about my life.

It's so bloody weird, so weird.

Like no human has been involved in this and I've chopped up a section of it just to sort of give you an idea.

So this bit is picked up on is about when I'm 13, I go back to my grandparents after living with my mum and dad for a very long time, getting up to all kinds of scalduggery in Europe.

I don't feel like a kid anymore.

And I go back to school and it's picked this bit out and listen to this.

There's two people talking about my life.

It's so weird.

Check this out.

And boom, he's thrown back into the structured world, school.

Yeah, but not a smooth transition.

There's this awkward reunion with the grandparents first.

Right, he notes how distant they had become.

Felt like they'd taken him in more out of obligation than love.

That's tough.

And it sets a bit of a tone for starting secondary school at 13.

Definitely.

And the shock on that first day seeing kids he knew from a previous school.

Kids he thought had no idea about his chaotic life.

And their reaction was exactly what you'd expect, or dread, whispering, pointing.

Ugh, he describes just wanting to run, feeling like he wasn't a kid anymore after everything.

Yeah, that feeling of being thrown back in.

And the pressure to fit in sounds immense.

The uniform description alone, horrific, nauseating green.

He really paints a picture.

And the specifics about trying to conform.

Like meeting certain expensive brands of trousers.

And wearing Adidas trainers that were too small just because they were the right ones.

Despite the discomfort, it sounds awful.

He literally says he felt like he was serving a sentence, you know?

Trapped between the difficult home situation and this struggle at school.

And that pressure, or maybe just the general frustration that seems to spill over sometimes.

Like this fight at the cinder path.

Yes, he talks about being outnumbered.

And making a cold calculation, really.

To just take the beating.

Yeah, take the beating then, but plan revenge for later.

Avoid a worse outcome right there.

But the revenge plot gets foiled.

It does.

The head of year steps in, stops him before he can confront the other person.

And the school's reaction to the whole thing just baffles him.

Completely.

They blame him, suggest he needs evaluation.

He's thinking, are they serious?

But then his grandfather's reaction is, well, completely different.

Totally different.

Calls the teachers, do lolly basically, crazy.

And defends him, saying he had a right to fight back after being beaten up.

Vigorously defends him, seemed almost proud.

Which the narrator found, you know, bizarre but also kind of sweet.

Yeah, he speculates the grandfather might have been a bit mad himself.

It shows that really complex relationship again.

Definitely.

We're all doomed.

What the hell was that?

How weird is that?

That is the weirdest thing.

I've seen some stuff and all I could think when I was doing that and listening to it back was if this is where we are now, where are we going to be in two, three, four, five years?

I mean, I don't even want to think about it.

So for now, I think, you know, when it comes to podcasts, I think it's better that we speak in less of an automated American accent.

Oh my God, my kids are constantly saying things like store and let's have some jello.

OK, enough now.

Enough with these Americanisms.

I don't want to hear words like soccer or, you know, crumpets being turned into, you know, English muffins.

That's English, isn't it?

Anyway, enough of these podbots, podbots.

I reckon I could probably upload this episode in two years into something we can't even think of.

And it will probably, I don't know, allow me to make my guests say whatever I want.

I could say whatever I want.

They could probably animate it.

I mean, what's the point, right?

We are mainly an audio podcast, I should mention.

We are staying audio.

This is not going to be a video podcast.

I will start to put out video snippets of the conversations just as teasers online, but there is no full video thing that we're doing.

So do not think we're going down that way.

If you see on social media, there's a clip.

It will probably only show the guest because I cannot stand it when I see podcast videos with people with two mics just chatting.

Aren't we sick of that now?

Aren't we sick of that?

It's like when you see a Zoom call, it just takes you straight back to COVID.

I can't deal with it.

So for me, you'll only ever see a snippet of the guest talking and I won't be interfering.

You don't need to see me.

You can hear me.

You don't need to see what I look like when I'm listening to them.

I'm not a newsreader nodding in the background.

So we'll keep it audio people.

Okay, just putting that out there.

Right, let's get to today's guest.

Now, my guest today is the brilliant standup Chelsea Birkby.

She's amazing.

You should check her special out online.

There will be links.

So I became aware of Chelsea probably about a year ago, I reckon.

I know that she had an award-winning show called No More Mr Nice Chelsea at the 2022 Edinburgh Fringe.

And last year she was there with This Is Life Cheeky Cheeky, which was on tour until recently.

I'm not sure if it's still on tour.

And yeah, she's really funny.

She's from Milton Keynes, which I find interesting.

And we get into straight away and we had this really, really nice chat and it was it was easy.

It was a good one.

I enjoyed it.

And she was very friendly and very nice and easy to talk to.

And I think we had a nice little rapport there.

And yeah, go and see her live if you can.

But for now, just sit back, relax, drive, do the hoovering, wash up, whatever it is you're doing.

Mostly I seem to be in the kitchen when I'm listening to podcasts.

But yeah, this is me talking to the very funny and very talented Chelsea Birkby.

Calling Chelsea Birkby to the stage.

Thank you.

Roll up, roll up and welcome to another edition of Television Times with your host me, Steve Otis Gunn, where I'll be talking to someone you do know or someone you don't.

It might be funny, but it might not be.

But it's always worth tuning in for.

So here we go with another episode of Television Times.

I just realized that's a fringe cut, but I nicked that from Space GK.

Naughty, am I?

I'm telling them.

I'm tagging them.

I got two of them.

I gave them enough money for their venue.

I'm allowed a couple of times.

Yeah, it's deserved.

It's fine.

Also, my partner's just, he's around, but he's heading out soon.

So there could be some noise when he goes out, but we can pause or you let me know.

So part of it, I've got dogs barking in episodes.

It's all fine.

Don't worry about any of that.

He won't be barking, I hope.

We'll see.

So you're from Milton Keynes?

I am.

This is the big news.

The big news, yeah, the thriving metropolis of Milton Keynes.

But I actually am not even saying that ironically.

Milton Keynes is thriving.

Yeah.

I used to go there as a kid.

I had an uncle that lived in a place called Stoney Stratford.

Stoney Stratford, yeah.

I used to go there as a kid.

MK12.

Yeah, MK12.

And they had the weird pointy houses.

And I remember going there when I was about nine.

And my first impression of Milton Keynes was going to their house, seeing their scale electrics in the lounge, and then a huge lightning bolt hit a house quite close by.

And one of those pointy houses had a hole in it.

And I didn't realize that lightning bolts were solid, or I assumed they were solid, some kind of rock.

And I didn't really understand what was happening.

But all these people came out, and that was my first impression of Milton Keynes.

Wow.

Hit by lightning.

That is quite the impression.

And by pointy house, yeah, I can see because you're acting out.

Instead of a normal, like when a kid draws a house, they draw a triangle that's like a...

Actually, I've now realized I don't know the names of triangles, but it's just like a standard classic triangle.

Whereas in Milton Keynes, the houses, they go straight up one side and the triangle leads.

Have we explained that well enough in words?

I just wonder if it's obviously conceived in the 50s or 60s, I assume.

So like that must be some kind of modern, hey, if it rains, it could just go down one side of the house and not the other.

Because I often wonder when you go to Spain, they've got a flat roof thinking, it's not a great idea, guys.

What happens if it rains?

That's what I was thinking.

There must be some kind of drainage system that we're talking about drainage system.

I've never looked that up, though.

And I don't know if I will.

My boyfriend gets annoyed at me about this because I'm like, oh, I wonder about that.

He's like, you could wonder and then discover.

And I'm like, oh, just the wondering.

The wondering is enough for me.

Do you Google instantly when you think of something or do you try and internally remember first?

I try and internally remember and then I don't Google it at all.

So I guess I never retain or learn anything.

No.

I get that with films because, I mean, it's quite a common trait.

But when you're watching something, oh, I know that person from there.

And then do you pause it and work it out or do you just continue to watch it while also trying to get the calls going?

I didn't know we could talk about films on this podcast.

Of course you can.

Well, originally, we tried to stay away from it.

And I had a horn for season one and two.

If someone mentioned a film, they'd get this.

But now, I'm over it.

It's going to come up.

Films are on TV.

TV is a screen rather than the medium of TV.

We're now saying TV is in general.

So there are films on televisions and they're also flat screens.

I mean, you're watching on iPad most of the time anyway.

So, yeah.

Watching it on the phone, not even turn to the side, just watching it.

Yeah.

I don't think that's how it's intended to be watched, but that is how I do it.

Also, on the, sorry, just to finish the Milton Keynes roof story.

Oh, we got a lot of Milton Keynes.

Go on, keep going.

I mean, I would love to talk more about Milton Keynes.

But the problem of the houses with point to just one side, where there's only one triangle, one lean on the roof, is that some of the houses, I think, they appeared in an article, and it's like houses that look like Hitler.

And it's because if they have the little, I don't know what it's like, the little mini, I don't know what it is, something above a window.

Sometimes if you have that and you have the bit to the side, it is.

Is that where the Hitler house image came from?

I think that might be like Northampton or something, but there are some lucky likeys in Milton Keynes.

I don't know which I'm not proud of.

I don't know.

I feel like I'm proud of Milton Keynes, but that is one part that we could do without.

I know.

There's things I just generally know, like the only street in London that is the other way around, like an American style where you drive on the right is the entrance to the Savoy Hotel.

Don't know why I know that.

And I know that the only place in England where cars have the right of way and not pedestrians is Milton Keynes.

So if you get hit by a car in Milton Keynes, it's your fault.

That's all I know.

I actually didn't know that, but that makes sense because when I'm walking, I live in Oxford now and when I was walking here, somebody, my friend said, no, we have right of way.

And I didn't know that.

And it must be because I'd just grown up in Milton Keynes where cars rule and not just cars but like now it's the self-driving vehicles and like little robots run along the streets.

Yeah.

Have you got the robot cars?

Oh, that's the perfect city for it though.

Yeah.

You have to program in all the roundabouts.

Yep.

And if you stand in front of the little robots, like the ones that go along the red ways, which are like the parts that are shared use with bikes, people and robots.

Yeah, they do.

They stop.

And sometimes I was walking, I walked about three miles and it was walking the same way, delivering some groceries and it felt like it was my little friend.

That's cool.

Like Samo or Kamo, whatever it is in LA.

Because now you're saying that, I don't know why this has popped into my head.

I remember when I was in Diggs there once, I was quite far out.

Don't ask me where, they all look the same.

But there was a path and clearly, it was near the Yamaha-Kemble place and they had these big sort of lampposts with circular lights on top in a sort of non, for no reason, curved, even though it could have just gone straight along the road.

And halfway down was a gate, but there was no fence.

So it was a gate that you could just walk around like in a cartoon with a path.

And I always thought that was quite strange.

Wow.

That's like an art installation.

Maybe it was.

Yeah.

It was a piece.

Yeah.

It says a lot, I think.

Yeah.

You know Milton Keynes well.

Very well versed in it.

I just went to that theatre a lot, did a lot of shows in that theatre.

And the theatres, I don't actually do.

I know this fact and I'm not going to search it as we know.

But isn't the theatre like kind of expandable and I guess the opposite of like shrinkable.

Let me think.

Yeah.

The stage comes out, you can build the stage out and get rid of the stalls.

I've been in that.

There's a little sort of box area that can either be seats or where you operate the show from.

And depending, sometimes I'd be in a box really at the top for like plays or something.

If I was doing like big name drop, Darren Brown Show, I would be right in the front, in the middle because I'd have to be able to see what's going on.

Yeah.

So yeah, it depends where you are really.

That is a great name drop.

I'm going through a Darren Brown phase at the moment.

I'm reading his book, Tricks of the Mind.

So you know him?

Yeah.

He's my famous friend.

He's on the wall somewhere here.

Yeah.

I worked on Sven Gali and I've worked on four shows of his and two in the West End.

So that's amazing.

Yeah.

He seems like a really funny guy as well.

Like it's not even his main thing, but he's just funny, funny on the side.

He is really, really funny.

Like when I first ever met him, it was during a time when there were huge billboards all over London with one of his specials coming up.

When my now wife, when she first came over to London, she's artistic stuff and she said, I'd love to work on a show of his.

I was like, how?

You're a graphic designer.

I'm like a sound engineer.

I've got more chance.

Within a year, we were both working for him.

It was really, really, really weird.

She manifested it.

She did.

I think that is what it is.

The funny thing was, when I went around his flat first in Baker Street, of course it was, I knocked on his door and he opened the door and he went, Hi, Darren Brown.

I'm like, yeah, I fucking know.

I've been watching you on television for years.

He's a lovely man.

He's a lovely guy.

That's good to hear.

What a cool work you've done.

What a cool work you've done.

It's not my best sentence.

I've also operated comedy shows.

It's been a varied career.

Now, I'm able to diversify into this.

One more thing about Milton Keynes, though.

Yes.

Crazy Nights out in Milton Keynes.

There's that group of pubs in that sort of after the theatre district.

There's the hilarious ski slope thing and shops inside, but also an array of bars underneath, pubs, JD.

Willis Swins, whatever, all identical, in my opinion, all completely quite larry at night.

But what I used to love about Milton Keynes every time I go there, I mean, I wasn't taking the piss a little bit, was that you'd have a sort of snowboard sort of fashion scene.

They'd be like dudes with sort of blonde hair with snowboards hanging out outside weather spoons with all the kit on, as if they're in like France or something.

And I always found that quite funny.

This is like the right of way thing.

I know exactly what you mean, but I just assumed that was sort of normal and happening everywhere.

But yeah, there was a...

No, that doesn't happen everywhere.

Because all of the shops in Xscape, the indoor Xscape, they all sell, I guess, skater stuff.

So yeah, I was really, I thought I was like a skater, but I've never never been able to skate.

But still, it's more just the vibe.

It's more the aesthetic.

It's more that I had access to those shops.

So I was like head to toe, Roxy.

It's pretty cool.

And you would have arguments with people.

I remember being backstage and someone would say, oh yeah, and it's got real snow.

And I was like, it's not real snow, is it?

He goes, no, no, it's real snow.

I guess, well, it's not real snow.

We'd have arguments about that.

Do you ever go down it?

That's quite a deep philosophical question.

I have been down it, but not snowboarding.

I've never snowboarded, but I did toboggan.

So I don't know if you really, if that counts.

Yeah, they got toboggan.

Yeah.

What, down it, sort of, and around or?

Down.

Maybe I'm questioning what a toboggan is.

What's a toboggan?

Isn't the toboggan the big, the sort of canoe with skis attached that goes really, really fast and you jump on it at the last minute and if you crash, you die?

Well, I didn't do that what I did.

I kind of just sat on a red box and slid down it.

Oh, so more of a, what are they called?

Sledge?

Sledge?

Well, maybe they, that's where I learned the word toboggan, so maybe they were just upselling, you know, trying to make us feel good.

I'm realizing that I don't think I know what a toboggan is either.

I think we're saying this word and it's sounding funny now.

And are you looking it up?

I am going to look it up so we can actually say what it actually is supposed to be.

And how are you spelling toboggan?

Okay, T-O-B-O-G-G-A-N.

You're right, there is something on, it looks like a sled, a sledge.

A toboggan is a simple sled, there we go, it's a sled, used in snowy winter recreation.

It is also a traditional form of cargo transport used by the Inuit people.

The Cree and the odd, I'm not going to say the others in case I get it wrong.

So there we go, it's a sled.

It's a sled.

And this is showing that it sometimes is good to look things up.

Yeah, it's fine.

I couldn't work that one out.

I thought toboggans were those.

Anyway, we don't need to talk about toboggans.

So I've watched your special.

You're not doing it this year, I'm assuming, because you're...

No, I'm not doing it this year, and it's the first time since I've been doing comedy that I've not gone to the fringe.

And I'm slightly, I veer between feeling like, this is amazing, I'm going to actually go on a summer holiday, and I see all my friends being stressed about it, and I think, la la la, I don't have to worry about that.

That's half of me, and the other half is like, what am I doing?

I need to have a show, I want to be up there.

So time will tell.

We'll see in August whether I've made the right choice.

Oh, you've made the right choice.

You know you've made the right choice.

Take a year off.

Oasis fans are going to be up there anyway, and the digs are going to be four million pounds and all of those things.

So I think it's a good year to skip it personally.

Thank you.

That's good to hear.

You got your first show, Was it No More Mr Nice Chelsea, 2022?

That was the first normal-ish one back after COVID?

Yes.

So that was quite a good year to go up, I'd imagine.

Yeah, I loved it.

It was a really good year to go up.

But I was told specifically by some people in the industry, they were like, this is a terrible year to do your debut show though, because it's all of the debuts that had been delayed from 2020 and 2021, everyone was doing it then.

But then I think when you have an idea that you're excited about, that can't last forever.

So I thought I'd rather do it now even if it's strategically not the best move, because I'm excited about it.

I'd had that feeling for a while, but then I read, have you read Big Magic by, is it Julia?

I can't remember her last name, but she's the one who wrote Eat, Pray, Love.

No, I haven't.

I think it's fantastic.

It's about how we write.

More than that, it's more like where do we get ideas from?

She talks about ideas are these things that live in the world and they visit us.

They want to be realized and actualized and it's up for us to do that.

If we don't do it, the idea goes stale and tries to find someone else to bring it to life.

I mean, it's easy to say that that's like woo-woo, but at least in my experience, if I don't bring the idea to life while I'm excited about it, when I revisit it sometimes, I think, no, now is not a good time and I go back to it and it's like the ideas died.

Yeah, it's gone, I'm trying to catch something from a dream and it just fades away and the excitement is gone.

Yeah, I'm not very woo-woo spiritually or anything like that, but I do think there's that thing of, I think it's called like 100th monkey syndrome, where sometimes two films will come out at the same time by two different people, it's about the same thing, could be about magicians, could be about whatever it is.

It's something to do with if you have an original idea, it then makes it easier for someone else to think of that same idea.

So once one monkey has thought of it, a hundred monkeys will find it easy to think of that thing.

Yeah, I'm not explaining it very well.

I think it's completely that.

No, no, you've explained that really well.

And it happens like time and time again.

But it is confusing, it's surprising.

Same with even obviously people were working on it, but coming up with vaccines for COVID, like they kind of appeared at the same time.

Obviously everyone was working, you know, like the same week, kind of.

Yeah, so it's like ideas do visit people, which is not to discredit the amount of work people do bringing them.

To life, but I do think there's something in that, like ideas are somehow in the world.

Yeah, I mean, I guess with like our phones spying on us and giving us things that we've thought about or maybe said and forgotten and you go, oh, that's popped up.

But I used to remember like, not even that long ago, I'd be thinking of say, I don't know, a musician.

So I think of Ben Folds or something.

I think, I wonder what Ben Folds is doing.

And I'll look online and he's releasing an album next week.

You know, it would be like that.

Spooky.

Yeah, I like stuff like that.

I don't know what that is.

It's good that you can tap into it because if you do, like I had a thing I put in my show, so it's not very nice.

It was to do with the Beatles playing on the roof of London and my mom and dad having sex.

Anyway, it doesn't really make any sense.

It popped into my head about a month before last year's Fringe and it popped into my head at 1 a.m.

And I thought, I can either sit in this bed and try and remember it or I go downstairs and I write this all down right now.

I had to and it became a big part of the show.

And sometimes you just have to do that, whether it works or not.

That's another thing, but you will forget it in the morning or it won't quite make sense the way you thought or you know exactly it is like the ideas just come for that time in that book.

Actually, she talks about not her but a poet said she had an idea for a poem when she was out for a walk and then she like raced home as fast as she could so she wouldn't like forget it.

And when she started writing it, she was writing it backwards like she was writing the last line first and so on.

It was almost like she was like clawing the idea back.

Yeah, that's good, isn't it?

Yeah, I once wrote a whole song lyrics included on a run in Australia and I came back and I worked out the chords and I wrote it all down and it was just it was complete.

And I always thought I didn't write that that came from somewhere because I didn't I wasn't thinking about it.

The whole thing just appeared like words and everything.

That is kind of it's kind of mystical in a way.

It is mystical.

I think that's the best feeling.

Apart from then, do you then get the worry you're like, oh no, I must have plagiarized this.

Like how did this come?

Yeah, that's the thing with like you and jokes.

Obviously, do you do that?

Do you go and say, has anyone made this joke before?

Has anyone thought about that?

Yeah, and I've got a line.

If you ever want to insult a comedian, what you can do is you can write a really dreadful joke and then say like, I wrote this joke, but I think you might have written something like this before.

To comedians you don't like.

Yeah, to comedians you don't like.

So this year you're not going up because also you're on tour with Sonya AB whose show I saw last year as well.

She was great.

It's incredible.

So you saw the show Sonya AB of All People.

Whatever it was, I can't remember the names of all the shows, but it was what was on at the Pleasance.

Yes, 2024.

That's the show that's on tour now.

Yeah, I absolutely love that show.

Like I've seen all of Sonya's shows and I'm a huge Sonya fan, but this show in particular, I think is just like leveled up.

So it's a joy to be obviously hanging out with her, seeing her on tour and very generous of her to be like sharing her audience with me, but just to see the show again and how it develops even on tour is a real gift.

And you get to go around the country and not be in Edinburgh.

It's fun going around the country.

We've done, where was I think the most recent one, last week we did Guildford and you kind of forget when you're on tour, but when I came out, I was like, Wednesday night, are we ready to party?

And Celia was like, oh yeah, I remember why some nights are different and it's because sometimes it's a, it's a Wednesday night in Guildford and it's not like, it's not this big night out vibe.

Yeah, school night.

But then you get a different audience and it's fun.

I've do quite a lot of tour support and it's really funny.

Like I've had a few overlapping this last month where I'm doing quite a lot of dates for Celia and for Ed Patrick.

Have you met Ed?

Oh, you've had Ed on the show.

Ed's been on the pod, yeah.

Yeah, friend of the pod.

So I'm doing his tour support at the same time and they have very different audiences.

So my instinct is to think this is my best, like 20 minutes right now.

This is what I'm going to do.

But actually it's wiser to pick a different set based on when I'm opening for Celia versus when I'm opening for Ed.

He gets an older audience.

So I have to drop some of the pop cultural references.

I'm sure they know them, but I don't know.

Just you want quick recognition so you can make the joke work.

Oh man, you're doing the opposite of what I had to do at the stand, which is I would have references that were just a little bit too old.

And I'd notice everyone in the crowd was about 21.

Like, oh fuck, I can't mention Michael Flatley.

Okay.

So you've got that in reverse.

What did the Boomers not know?

Yeah, they don't know about like Smash and Pass on TikTok.

But that's fun to explain.

Sometimes there's joy in being like, oh, you don't know what this is.

Let me explain to you.

But how would you explain Michael Flatley?

I guess that's a lot.

It kind of slows down the show maybe.

Yeah, that's a difficult one.

And I've got a whole, because I've got kids who talk in brain rot.

So they've got their own language as well.

Do you know about brain rot?

I know about brain rot.

You know about brain rot, don't you?

Skibbidy toilet.

Yeah, it's a lot.

I've got like this Bristol born son who's 11 now, and he lives here in Newcastle.

And yet he's walking around going, hell nah, skibbidy toilet, skibbidy Rizzo and all this stuff.

I mean, I do know what it all means, but it's like, can you stop?

Well, it's just kind of in soundbites.

It's just every generation has their own language that sort of their parents aren't supposed to know, right?

So they can talk and code.

That's all it is.

I like that.

It's fun.

Did you have any of mine?

Yeah, I'm just trying to think.

What was my skibbidy toilet?

What was your skibbidy toilet?

When I was a kid, I lived in Peterborough for a while.

And when I moved to Peterborough, they had their own language that was different to London.

And they would say things like, oh, that's the sad good.

And I'd be like, what?

And I think that meant that was very good.

Whoa.

It was like opposite, oh, that's the sad good, that is.

The sad good.

But that's quite deep because I can relate to a feeling of like sad good.

You know where it's like, like sometimes, hey, sometimes TV can make you feel sad good.

Good, good, well done.

That's what this podcast is supposed to be about.

And Chelsea's a place too.

And my middle name is Victoria, a place.

Oh, a sponge.

Nice.

My favorite cake.

Oh, your favorite cake is a Victoria sponge.

Just a Victoria sponge.

No messing around.

Just a nice big chunky slice.

I think that's rogue.

I think that's a bit rare.

You think so?

What would you have?

I think that's like saying your favorite biscuits are digestive.

I think this is.

No, my favorite biscuit is a Viscount because it comes in its own little wrapping still like it's like ancient.

See, that's a bit more.

There we go.

I think that's the answer you want.

I like a lemon drizzle cake.

That's not the most all guns blazing cake, but still it's got more going than a Victoria sponge.

I love a lemon poppy seed muffin from Cafe Nero.

They're pretty good.

I used to like those.

Whenever there's a birthday or whatever, I always just get a selection of cakes and I always get the Sainsbury's Taste of Difference ones.

About two or three quid and they're all different and they're all nice.

But the lemon one recently just tastes of fake sugar.

It's got what I call liberal Democrat sugar on it.

It's all fat-reduced cocoa, whatever.

It's liberal shit and it now tastes of poison and it used to just taste nice.

That is so disappointing.

That is really disappointing.

That's the type of thing that could ruin a day.

Yeah.

I think if you're looking forward to one of those and you have that, I'm sorry that you've been through that and I don't know why I'm sounding sarcastic because I mean that is disappointing.

Yeah.

Innocence is stuff like that.

I can be crushed by if you're looking forward to a treat and you saved it up for a while and then they've changed something in it, it's devastating.

It is.

If it says new recipe on something you like, like I like corn, I'm veggie right, so I eat corn slices and they keep changing them.

They keep changing them to make them, are you vegan?

Not vegan.

Veggie.

You're veggie, good.

Because they've actually now changed everything to be vegan as well as vegetarian, so now I've got to eat vegan when I eat certain things.

They're a bit more plastic, a bit drier maybe because they're trying to do the same thing for both people.

I sort of slightly occasionally resent it because they take it and this is very boring.

But corn slices don't taste the same as they did two years ago, that's all I'm saying.

No, I agree.

I do agree and I tried to go vegan but I have never managed it.

But I do think vegetarians are being pushed out, you know?

Minority.

Yeah, we're a minority and something needs to be done about it.

It's like the full on carnivore Joe Rogan eating or Kemmy Badnock eating steaks at breakfast.

Or it's like people who like survive on three almonds and a glass of milk, not milk, soy milk, hazelnut milk.

I have hazelnut milk now in my cereal.

That's weird, isn't it?

Well, that's nice.

It is nice.

Anyway, let's talk about TV.

I've got a little favour to ask you.

Could you please follow us on social media?

And if you've got time, leave a review on Apple podcasts or wherever you get them.

It all helps drive traffic back to the podcast.

But for now, let's get back to the current episode of Television Times.

Chelsea, what is your favourite jingle?

I think it has to be, and tell me, a theme tune jingle, are they the same thing, first of all?

A jingle is like, you know, trustytrader.com or a theme tune to a TV show, whatever is stuck in your head.

Thanks.

I've slightly misinterpreted it, but have you ever watched The Simple Life with Paris Hilton and Nicole Richie?

I have.

That's a long time ago, isn't it?

I do remember that.

Yeah, it's a throwback.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The theme tune.

Don't regal.

Slap, dingle, if you've interpreted it that way.

It's incredible.

It's like almost like a fresh Prince of Bel Air where it's like got all of the exposition in the theme tune.

Yeah, it's really fun.

It's like, let's take two girls by Filthy Rich from the bright lights down to the sticks.

It's great.

And it's got a lot of sound effects in the committee.

I think it's got like farm animal noises and stuff because they're moving, you know, to live a simple life.

That sounds like real white man dad rap to me, like going down the street because I'm feeling the beat kind of rap.

Yeah, it's like that.

And it's perfect.

We can't put it in for copyright reasons, so that's good.

I like that.

Yeah, that's why I was tempted to sing it.

But then I thought maybe they'll be like, wow, she sounds so good.

She sounds exactly.

They must be playing the real thing.

If I was to ask you a TV show that they should bring back from the dead, would that be one of the...

I was thinking that.

I was like, I loved, I loved the simple life.

It's had a huge impact on me.

I think they're so funny.

And I think it says it says so much, but they did recently bring it back.

I think Nicole Richie and Paris Hilton did a series on, I don't know, like some pay for subscription service.

And I haven't watched it.

And so I don't know why, because it's like I love that show and I love them.

And yet I haven't watched the spinoff.

I don't know.

I don't know why.

That must have been one of the first big kind of reality TV shows of that style.

Yes.

In that like noughties reality.

But I think it was soon after.

And I love all of that stuff because I think it was like the Osbournes and Jessica Simpson show that there were kind of the first big celeb shows like that.

Yeah.

And then Paris Hilton and Nicole Richie.

Well, Nicole Richie wasn't really well known at all.

And Paris Hilton was mostly known for her.

Well, sex tape is how it was told.

But, you know, revenge porn.

Yeah.

These days that would be exactly what it is.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Everyone's seen it though.

Unfortunately, I've got imagery.

And I don't know if I've even seen it.

Have I seen an image of it still or something?

I must have.

Yeah.

It's probably like I've not seen it either.

And yet I know like some, I guess it still is all the parts that like TMZ would share like before it gets explicit.

But yeah, it's sad that we know that even if we've not sorted out.

So let alone the people that have.

I have to say, when you brought up her name, I thought of her music career, which was short lived and I thought of the hotels.

I didn't even think of that.

So that's good.

Well, that's good.

She's managed to reclaim her narrative and her music career.

Well, she had, which is the big hit that was actually great.

It's actually a super pop song.

No idea.

Paris Hilton's.

Stars are blind.

It's actually a great pop song.

Really?

You talked about the Osborns there.

Did you see the Osborns at the time or?

I didn't watch that at the time, but I have watched some of the episodes since.

That was the typical TV show for me where I saw a clip of it and I thought, who the hell is going to watch that?

That's absolute rubbish.

I got off a bus.

This is going to sound travel name-droppy.

I got off a bus from Sao Paolo.

I got to Fos de Aguasso with these big waterfalls on the border of Paraguay.

I like some wanker here talking about travel, but it was a backpacking trip.

I had no money.

But I was there and I was absolutely knackered because it was a night bus.

I put the telly on and all I can see is a jingle for me.

Now I've got the jingle that used to play.

It was more like the sponsor.

It was called Puppy Chow and it was for dog food and it would go something like next the Osborne sponsored by Puppy Chow, Puppy Chow and that's all it would do.

And I sat there and I kid you not, I did not leave the room.

I must have sat there for about eight hours just watching more and more and I got completely hooked and even though I was backpacking, I was always trying to get to a TV because I didn't have an iPad or anything.

I was always trying to get to a TV to see if it was on because I remembered what channel it was on.

So I just made sure there was a TV and any digs that I went to.

Incredible.

And that's why Puppy Chow is burnt into your mind as well.

It's a great name for dog food, isn't it?

Yeah, that's a great name.

So I haven't really watched it, but it blew up, didn't it, that show?

And I think what is still unusual about the Osbournes versus other reality TV shows is usually the Kardashians, they're all completely up for it and they know what they want to get out of it.

Maybe not at the beginning.

Whereas the Osbournes, it seems like Ozzy didn't really have a clue what was going on, or he wasn't trying to project an image or get a brand deal or anything.

It was just...

That's true.

Well, I guess they didn't really know what it was, right?

Because they were just sort of finding that we're going to film you all day and we're going to make something out of it.

I don't think there was anything like that before.

And it was around, was it?

It must be like 2002 or something.

So Big Brother would have happened a couple of years earlier.

So it was all starting up, but I don't think there was anything like that before.

No, I don't know if this is true, but I think maybe Jessica Simpson's show Newlyweds with her and Nick Lachey.

Lachey, is that his name?

I think so.

I don't know if that was first or right after Osborne's, but that was around the same time.

And I've rewatched all of that now.

And I love it.

She's so sweet and she was playing, I think the most famous clip, have you seen this clip from it where she's talking about, she's eating tuna and there's a brand called Chicken of the Sea.

I know Chicken of the Sea.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So she was like asking Nick, whose last name may or may not be Lashay.

She was asking him, so what am I eating now?

Is it fish or is it chicken?

And he gets really annoyed at her.

He's like, you know what it is.

And she's actually just this really sweet, like 21-year-old girl who, I don't think she is a complete bimbo, but he really gets a bit nasty and annoyed at her.

And that clip went, I guess, the equivalent of viral at the time where it was like, oh, this like blonde bimbo, like she's so stupid.

But, I mean, she made a profit off it.

She was laughing her way to the bank.

Do you know what?

I've never seen that, but I have my own exact similar story of being somewhere in America.

I'm going to say it has to be New York because of the way the guy was saying it.

And I was in a supermarket and I was trying to buy tuna.

I was pescatarian.

So I was like, have you got any tuna?

And he was like, chicken of the sea?

And I was like, no, tuna, tuna?

No, yeah, tuna, chicken of the sea.

And I was like, what the fuck is wrong with this guy?

What is he talking about chicken for?

And this went on for ages.

So I know her pain.

I had no idea what he was talking about.

Yeah, okay.

So you've had your bimbo moment.

Yeah, exactly.

But yeah, chicken of the sea.

I didn't know that was a brand and especially if you're vegetarian or pescatarian, you absolutely don't want to be eating chicken, whether it's been in the sea or on land.

Yeah, well, I've had worldwide arguments with people.

I think when I looked back, I remember in Hong Kong, someone giving me mock meat and I was saying, I don't eat chicken.

And they were going, no chicken.

And it looked exactly like chicken.

I was like, I can't eat that.

I went somewhere else and it turned out it was like seitan or something like that.

But it looks so real.

So yeah, I didn't think it wasn't meat.

So I didn't eat it.

Yeah.

Especially if you can't like read or speak the language, you can't be sure, can you?

Like I remember I was in Spain and I didn't speak any other languages.

I've tried, I've like spent so much money trying to learn French.

I've done a bunch of courses, but just none of it stuck.

But anyway, I was in Barcelona and we wanted the vegetarian sandwich.

And they were like, yes, this is the only one.

And it was it was tuna.

So sometimes you do have to be.

Oh, you can get even worse when you go out in the morning.

I love going to like Valencia, my favorite place to go in Spain.

When you go out for breakfast and all the old guys are drinking, you know, it is guys drinking like alcohol for breakfast.

And they get the tostada e tomate, whatever.

And I ordered it once and they put the very thin ham that's cut off the leg thing that's always hanging everywhere.

Is it Ibericola?

I don't know what I'm talking about.

Anyway, they put the meat on.

And I said, No, no, no, I just want the tomato one.

I don't want the meat one.

He goes, Oh, that's fine.

He takes it off.

I watch him.

He just takes it off.

He brings it back to me.

And I thought, well, I can't be like I used to be in subway going, can you please change your gloves, please?

I was in Spain.

I was like, I guess I'll just sit here and pretend to not eat it then.

And I was just so British about it.

I was like, for some reason, I guess because I ate meat up until I was like 18.

I'm not bothered sometimes if meat touches something.

I think obviously ideally it wouldn't, but I don't mind.

And sometimes I'm even like, oh, well, I mean, if it was accidentally cooked in some oil that had some bacon in it, then it just makes it extra tasty.

Yeah, I think that's the difference between possibly vegetarian and vegan in that I know some vegan people who won't even get a takeaway because obviously if you get Chinese food delivered, I get a mushroom curry.

They haven't got a specific mushroom curry wok set aside for me, my local Chinese, do you know what I mean?

That's had some shit in it that I don't want to know about.

So don't look backstage, keep your eyes focused out front and hope for the best.

Yeah, and then enjoy your lovely meal.

You're right, I like that.

So Chelsea, new question, you're going to be the first one to answer.

I hope you can do it because I'm really not sure.

I can answer it myself.

But could you explain to a child how moving pictures get onto a TV?

Well, no, I have absolutely no idea.

I was thinking I can figure this out, but I don't.

It's like the same with...

There's that study, isn't there, where they asked, I think it was in American colleges, they were like, do you consider yourself intelligent?

And they said yes.

Then they asked them to explain how a toilet works.

And then everybody completely failed.

And then they asked them again, would you consider yourself intelligent?

And the rankings dropped by half.

Oh, really?

So, no, I have no idea how you...

I couldn't explain to a child or an adult or to myself.

I mean, I'm quite technological, but I just think it's more to do with like, not like gratitude of the things you have or anything like that, but sometimes I'm watching TV and I just think, isn't this amazing?

Isn't this magical that I can see this?

Like, sometimes we see pictures in the olden times where they're taking a photograph with the camera, with the hood over the head and the big flash.

And somehow that image is then on paper.

What are you talking about?

How can that be a thing?

How can you capture time and life in a...

It just, it blows my mind.

And the idea that then you can then film that and then send it through the air to your...

You know, that was mad, but now it's even worse.

It's like we're all on a sort of intercontinental plane and we're all watching our own...

You know, like in planes, basically, when they started being able to like pause and watch film.

It's probably been like that your whole life.

But there was a time when you had to sort of just watch it on a loop and catch it.

And then suddenly in the early 2000s, you could all be watching a different film.

And now the whole world can do that.

So we could all watch an episode of Money Heist.

The same episode and pause it all at different times.

How is that possible?

You know what I mean?

Even that aspect of it.

I do not understand how it's possible.

And I've had this conversation before about...

What I find even trickier to understand, even though it's an older technology, is records, how like vinyls play music.

And I understand it's like the grooves and stuff like that.

But how can that have contained all of the instruments and the human voice?

I know, how?

And they show it to you.

They go, oh, well, look, you can see the sound waves and the needle.

Yes, but it still doesn't explain how you're hearing Billy Joel singing and a banjo on that side.

What is going on here?

That checks me out more than like somehow playing it on a streaming service or something.

That to me makes more sense.

I'm like, oh, it's digital.

Just a vague answer of like, it's digital something, something.

But an LP, how that does it?

No idea.

We grew up on tapes and that's also weird.

And they go, oh, it's really simple.

When a tape is blank, all the electrons are pointing in a different way.

And when they recorded, they're pointing in a random way.

That doesn't explain why Bowie is in my ears.

What is happening here?

This doesn't make, it's just a moving piece of plastic.

Or even how your eardrum can hear things when it's a drum, but then it can, it can hear, okay, I'm, but how can it hear all the sounds?

Yeah, well, that's all the sound stuff.

So there's the, I might be getting this wrong, but in the cochlea, the thing with all the hairs in it, the reason we hear, I think it's, I think I'm getting this right.

It'll kill me, my sound people, if I'm getting this wrong.

It's 24,000 hertz is what we can hear.

And that is because we have 24,000, when we're born, little hairs in our ears that pick up all the different frequencies.

And as you get older, the ones on each end start to die.

So you hear, like old people can't hear treble, right?

So everything becomes a bit more muffled.

Or you just, you know, I think people are mumbling on telly personally, but our ears are perfectly made to tune into the exact frequency of a human voice.

That sounds obvious in a sort of biological way, but I still think that's fascinating because they could have not been, they could have been tuned to hear birds and not each other.

You know, it could have been anything.

Yeah.

And then on top of that, that it's like not just how the mechanics of the ear works, but also what we decide to pay attention to.

Because there are so many things that we're kind of just tuning out.

And my dad is, he's deaf in one ear, and it was really upsetting because he loved hi-fi, and he had a real collection, and that was his great love.

But he's figured out a way to enjoy it again through almost like, because he's completely deaf in one ear, he kind of sits sideways and the sound bounces off the window.

And he's found a way to make it feel like it comes everywhere.

But he has tinnitus, and he said when he first got it, he was like, that's all he could hear, just this ringing in his ear.

But now he said the doctors told him, I promise you, you will find a way to be able to tune this out.

And he was like, I just don't believe it.

But now years later, he's like, unless I think about it, and so when he was telling me about it, he's like, now it's raging really loud.

But you do just tune it out.

And so like what else are we doing that with, that we just filter out noises?

Yeah.

And what can't we hear?

And he must be really good in like the Greggs if someone's shouting on their phone.

He better tune that out a little bit better than me.

La la la.

2026, yep, already working on a new show, which is slightly about magic, I think, hence my recent interest in.

Yeah, well, I'm not a magician, but I went to a magic show and it, you've sworn, haven't you?

It fucked me up.

This guy, it was a mentalist, they read my mind and this must be about four months ago now.

And I've been freaked out by it since.

And so kind of in an act of reclaiming, I don't know how I feel about it.

I'm talking to the audience about like manipulation and trickery.

Oh, all right, nice.

Yeah, so I'm working on that.

And it's very fun and very silly.

And I wonder if I could actually try and learn some magic.

Do you do any impressions?

Do I do any impressions?

No, I am dreadful at it.

Apart from singing, for some reason, I can't do accents at all.

Like it's embarrassingly bad.

I have one bit in the first show, which you've seen where I speak in a French accent and literally, like my partner had to like write it out phonetically.

So I could like practice that to be able to do it well enough for it to scan.

But for some reason, yeah, I can't talk in any accents really.

But when I sing, I can really mimic other people.

So probably I'm getting out of this now for copyright reasons.

I can't do it, but I think I can do a good share.

I can do, yeah, all sorts of accents.

I think, Cher, you just sing into a cup, don't you?

I just do something like that.

But you also kind of sound like maybe like a Pathé News presenter.

Yeah, oh my God, it's exactly that.

I'm putting my face in the stolen cup.

In 1939, the plane took off from New York and landed in London's Heathrow.

Yeah, that really works, doesn't it?

That's fantastic.

And I like that now we know there's an overlap between that and Cher.

Well, for me, here we go.

Oh, God, I'm doing it again.

A name drop, a town drop.

Okay, so let me qualify this.

You've seen the film The Beach?

Yes.

Right.

You know the digs he's in at the beginning in Thailand with the no joined roof, you know, you can hear next to it.

I was in that exact prison cell type Thai place in Bangkok.

It cost three pounds a night on the Khao Sam Road.

And it was really, really noisy because that's where they party all night long.

And then the noise would stop at about three o'clock.

And then at four o'clock, they would start banging all the market stalls up.

So there was never any quiet.

And when they were doing that, for some reason, the storeholder outside where I was would play Believe on a loop.

So it would play like continually.

Worse than like, I mean, the worst song to play on a loop is Born in the USA, obviously.

But the second worst is Believe.

And it just went round and round and round.

And it became like some kind of Guantanamo Bay situation.

I'm sorry that I've brought this up for you.

You've had quite intense flashbacks actually in this chat.

You've had the puppy, the chow.

What was the food?

Puppy chow.

Puppy chow, yeah.

And now you've got Cher, Believe.

Yeah.

And in this show, actually, I do a horse.

I can do a really good sound of a horse.

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah, there's a moment of...

Okay, I'm not sure what to make of it.

There's no copyright here, so we can hear this one, right?

Okay.

Well, I haven't practiced.

Okay.

I hope I get this right.

Maybe we can...

Okay.

And you know, listeners, they're going to be like, no, no way is this true.

You just played a horse sound or a horse walked in, but okay.

No sound effects.

This is all legit.

Okay.

Oh, that's very good.

Thanks.

If you got just one a day, because I can do...

I can't do it now because I've done one already.

I can do an Aruga, you know, but it's not good enough.

But I can only do one a day.

If I try and do another one, it won't come.

No, no.

Well, maybe it's like the ideas, you know, like these beautiful impressions, they just visit us and we have to actualize them.

They want to be brought into the world.

Have you ever had a TV show that you've scheduled your day around?

Yes, still do.

Most recently with the, yeah, with the Traters.

Oh, yes.

Got to watch that live where you find out.

Yeah, absolutely hooked on it.

Yeah, social media kind of bullies you into having to watch things on a timely schedule.

But I also love that.

I really like when shows just release one episode a week.

Like I'm a huge fan of the Kardashians.

And I will sign up to whatever subscription service they move the show to and then cancel it as soon as the season's done.

And it's like season seven or whatever of the Kardashians, the new one now.

And they release one episode a week and it comes out on Thursdays.

And we're recording this on a Friday.

I watched it last night as soon as I was done with work and I didn't have a gig.

And even though I have a show to prepare for, I was like, no, it's time to watch the Kardashians.

I really love it.

I much prefer that option because if I'm given the option to binge it, I will do.

And I'll forget stuff.

It will kind of wash over me, whereas watching one a week, you have the anticipation and then you have the moment of thinking, oh, we're all kind of watching this together.

And obviously with the Kardashians, not everyone's watching it at the exact same time like the traitors.

But still, I checked online afterwards to see what people were making of it, what people were saying about it.

Yeah, so it's my preference to have live shows.

That's interesting.

I guess that is a different thing.

It's not that you're watching it in a scheduled time, but you are trying to watch it around the time that has been released so that you can not find out stuff you don't want to find out.

Yeah, and be part of the conversation.

Like people said with traitors, it's bringing back the water cooler conversation thing.

Then obviously a lot of people don't go into offices anymore.

But still, it's good small talk when you're like, did you see the last episode of this?

Especially with things like the traitors, because people have all sorts of different opinions about it.

Have you watched the American one?

That's hard to watch.

And that too.

I am.

I'm not a big fan of...

The problem with the American one is Alan Cumming is very, very good.

At least this year, the American one isn't just copying the UK's tasks, exactly like they were last year.

But a lot of the people on there are just...

Oh man, it's just hard to watch.

It's hard to listen to so much like housewives of New Jersey, people shouting at the other one.

It's not as nice.

And you just think, well, they don't need the money, because they're already like famous, right?

It's just a little bit more...

Oh, because it's celebs on the American one.

Alleged celebs, yeah.

And it's good because I don't know who they are.

That's why I like watching the Australian celebrity stuff, too, because I don't know who they are.

To me, they're just people, right?

If I watch, like, Celebrity SAS Australia, I don't know who that is.

So it's the same thing.

But these are, like, overtly...

They're just playing to the cameras a lot more than, say, just watching the civilian BBC one, the English one, which I do prefer.

But I like both.

I like watching it.

I watch it.

I don't mind.

And it's nice to sort of...

What I like is to sort of start watching it and go, oh, that guy's...

It's like watching Maths Australia or something.

That guy is clearly going to be a dickhead.

And then you find out, actually, they're quite nice and you change your opinion.

And that's also quite nice.

Yes.

You know, to sort of think, oh, actually, they're pretty decent actually.

That's Zac Efron's brother.

He seems quite nice actually.

You know, whereas before, how's that guy?

Why is he on TV?

Yeah.

I like that too when you, yeah, a character arc in reality shows.

But then there's also, there's kind of the double way of watching any shows, even the traitors way.

On one level, you're just watching the show and enjoying it.

And then on another level, you're trying to second guess what the edit is making you want to feel.

You're like, is this person, are they being teed up for that they're going to be banished this week?

Or is this person being given the villain edit?

And I personally love that.

That's partly why I love the Kardashians, because it's like a reality show, almost about a reality show.

And there's the level of which you're just watching something where it's like, oh yeah, beautiful people doing glamorous things and it's not relatable at all.

And then there's another level which it's like, I don't know, it's like it's commentary, like they flash back to previous episodes, they talk about what people have said about the episodes and it's kind of meta in a way.

So it's a whole universe.

It's a whole universe, whole cinematic universe.

What did the mentalists do to you then?

Can you say?

Yeah, I can say so they had scrunched up a piece of paper and they were throwing it around the room.

It was his last trick and he was the last act of the night.

And I personally, as an audience member, hate audience interaction.

As a comedian, I enjoy it.

But as an audience member, I'm like, this is unethical.

Leave me alone.

Yeah, please.

I've just paid to watch the show.

So he scrunched up this piece of paper and he's throwing it.

Everyone had to throw it around the audience.

It was coming towards me and I didn't want any interactions where I leant backwards and it fell to the floor.

And he was like, no, that was going to hurt.

And so I picked it up and then he started his work with me.

He said, think of a card, any card.

And I locked in straight away four of hearts.

Because out of anxiety, it was like, okay, just think of something quickly and then have it ready to go.

And he was like, the most common ones are, and he went through them.

He was like, but you're going to stick with yours or even if it's the same.

And then he said, okay, now he's going to go through the deck and pick out your cards.

And he did.

And that was very impressive.

That part didn't freak me out.

I was like, because I'd said at the same time, four of hearts as he's revealed it.

So I thought maybe there's some sleight of hand thing he can do there.

The part that spooked me out is that then he said, okay, now unfold the piece of paper.

Like we all thought the trick was done.

Unfold the piece of paper which I had held in my hands.

And it said four of hearts on it.

It really spooked me because it was like, in my experience, that choice came to me completely of my own free will.

But yet he had told me or like somehow he knew that's what I was going to say.

And not just that, but that he wanted me specifically to like end up with the piece of paper when I'd avoided it.

I was like, is he looked around this room and be like, of everybody here, she is the easiest to manipulate.

And it just, I guess the premise for the next show maybe, or that I'm exploring right now is like trying to prove, that freaked me out because it made me think either magic is real or free will isn't.

So attempting to prove which it is in the next hour.

But truly it has bothered me and I've looked up a million ways how to, I mean, he's doing the act at the Magic Circle.

I don't think the secret is kept secret, but it just is.

That's interesting.

All of that stuff, I mean, firstly, audience interaction, the worst, absolutely the worst.

I mean-

Wait, are you saying this as someone doing a show or at the show?

Oh, I don't mind if I'm doing a show.

As if I'm at a show.

Which TV character do you feel an affinity with?

Okay.

This is embarrassing.

But I, as a kid, absolutely loved Rory from Gilmore Girls.

Have you watched Gilmore Girls?

I have seen Gilmore Girls, yes.

I still love the show.

I think it really holds up.

Although Rory is no longer my favorite character in it by any stretch.

But I think she was just how I wanted to see myself, because she was incredibly bright and incredibly funny, and she was a bit different from the people around her.

Then she went to this amazing school.

I think I just was like, I'd love to be like that, just so bright and brilliant.

But it's funny because watching it back now, I'm like, God, she's dreadful.

Really?

She's so annoying.

Didn't they bring it back for a while?

They brought it back.

Yes, they have brought it back.

No, and the show has dated well.

In fact, I think it's a sign of how good it is.

You rewatch a show and you just see different traits and characters and you realize that's something you loved about them.

Some of the stuff about her, I was so teenage in a way that now it's like I find myself way more relating to Lorelai, her mom, and much prefer the character of Lorelai.

I think it's funny that you have an affinity with these characters, but actually it's a stage that you go through.

Yeah, that is true.

You swap over, because I feel that when I'm watching certain things now, like if I'm watching something where someone has maybe a 16-year-old daughter or something like that, whereas before I wouldn't have cared about that character, whatever.

Now I'm thinking, don't let her go out without a coat on or whatever it is.

I'll just be thinking, is she going to be all right?

Is she going to be okay out there?

Or you have these different feelings, I don't know.

That's very sweet.

I've heard that about books, that it's like you read the same book again, but you're coming at it through all different stages of your life.

It's a different encounter every time and you start to relate to different characters.

So I think actually, okay, maybe I can reclaim back some dignity here.

There's that Heraclitus quote that it's like you can't step into the same river twice.

I think it's the same rewatching a TV show.

You're never just watching it the same again because even though that stayed the same, you've changed in that time.

Oh, I like that.

That's interesting.

So that's why I can watch a surprise for a third time when I'm 70.

Yes, absolutely.

And you'll get a different experience.

It won't be like, as long as you are watching it, not doing like second screen or who knows what happens when you're 70, it'll be second pair of glasses.

Yeah, because you see it at the time.

Like I saw Friends at the time, I'm that old.

But I saw Friends recently rewatch the whole thing with my wife.

First of all, I know it's had a massive resurgence, but I also want to see what the issues were.

Because certain people have pointed out like, oh, that doesn't age well or whatever.

So I want to see if there was any merit to that or how I felt.

And there were bits I thought, fucking hell, I wouldn't say that.

But there were bits where actually I thought that might be awkward.

And actually that was fine.

There was nothing wrong with that bit, but there was other bits that were wrong.

I think at one point Rachel does an Indian impression.

Oh, I don't remember that flag enough.

Oh, I don't remember that, yeah.

I see.

I'm a great believer in, don't judge things through the lens of now, but leave it there so we can see it and judge it if it is wrong or if things and attitudes have changed.

Don't just like erase it.

I think we do have to understand things in their context, but what I think is extra spooky about it, which is why we just want to condemn it, is because, you know, I'm sure that there will be people that would have laughed at that, like Rachel Green doing an accent thing when they first watched it and now they find it abhorrent.

I think it's unsettling for people to realize I used to think that was fine too, so it's better to just declare it like that was bad and that's always been bad and get rid of it, because really they're trying to say, I'm good and so I would never would like something like that.

I like Little Britain at the time, I think.

I remember going around my mum and dad's house and watching bits of that and thinking it was hilarious.

And no one admits that.

Everyone's like, no, I always hated it.

No, they didn't.

They absolutely didn't.

If I can have millions and millions of viewers.

Yes, the most watched show, wasn't it?

Wasn't they?

Yeah, it was huge.

Yeah, I mean, I definitely watched things that would be considered like all the isms now.

Like when I was a kid, gay characters were always portrayed in an incredibly effeminate way.

I laughed at that.

I wouldn't do it now.

Yeah, but it's good as well.

That means progress has been made.

The fact that we look back at stuff and think it's wrong is because hopefully we're headed in the right direction.

Well, Chelsea, it's really fun talking to you, actually.

I could have talked to you for another half an hour without any issue at all.

Thank you for coming on Television Times.

Don't know if we even talked about TV, to be honest, a little bit here and there.

It was a pleasure.

Thank you so much for having me on.

And yeah, I could keep chatting too.

And maybe I will look up how TVs work, but probably I won't.

It would just remain a nice mystery.

Yeah, you can leave it.

It's the magic.

The magic.

Then there'll be lots of magic in your special in Edinburgh in 2026.

Yeah, 2026 Edinburgh Fringe new show, 2027 Netflix.

And 2030 The World.

I actually just got a cash card through the post and said it runs out in 2030.

That freaked me out a little bit.

I don't like that.

Well, thanks for coming on.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Bye.

That was me talking to Chelsea Birkby.

I think you'll agree she was a really lovely guest and fine stand up.

Her show, No More Mr Nice Chelsea, is available to watch on YouTube.

The full comedy special, a critically acclaimed debut stand up hour.

So get on there and have a watch of that.

Also, try and get out of that house and go and see her live, because she's excellent.

Go on, do it.

But for now, here's today's outro track.

Today's outro track is called Eva Perron.

It was written in the same few days as the song I put out last week, Damaged Goods.

I was in Norwich, I was on tour, staying in a friend's house, and I saw this old man apply an eyeliner, and I was thinking a lot about religion, and if there's a heaven after life, that kind of thing.

Obviously, well, not obviously, but I'm an atheist, I don't really believe in that stuff.

But I also realized that I really hope I'm wrong.

Really hope I'm wrong.

It was during that contemplation that I came up with this song.

Again, about the time it takes to listen to it.

It was a pretty quick one, kind of a demo really.

But I really like this song and it's called Eva Perron.

I hope you like it.

That was Eva Perron, a song I came up with in 2009 from the Transatlantic EP.

Well, I hope you liked that song, and I hope you liked my chat with Chelsea.

Come back next week for another great episode.

Thank you so much for listening, and until then, bye for now.

Okay.

Let's dive in.

Starting point, Milton Keynes.

Right.

The houses.

Those houses, yeah, with the unique roofs.

Very distinct.

Not the standard symmetrical look at all.

One side straight, the other sloped.

And it immediately makes you think, what happens when it rains?

Yeah.

It's such a basic, practical question, isn't it?

Where does the water go?

It's a simple design choice, but it genuinely sparks that moment of wonder.