Alex Lowe: Clinton Baptiste - Comedy with a Supernatural Twist

Good afternoon, good morning, good evening, Screen Rats.

And here we are for our 50th episode.

Today we have the amazing Alex Lowe, who plays Clinton Baptiste.

I thought it was very fitting for a 50th episode.

He's just such a lovely man, and a hilarious character comedian.

Brilliant, brilliant stuff that's coming up.

But let's just skip ahead a bit, because I'm gonna be taking a little break.

Tiny break, don't freak out.

It's not long, a month, maybe less.

So I just need a little break.

We're all caught up, there's no more to record.

I'm gonna start a whole new batch.

Almost like a season two, but it won't.

It will just be same numerical order.

But it's just been a great first year.

It's exactly where I want it to be.

I want it to have some good episodes.

I know the early ones were a bit ropey and it got better and better and better.

And we got better guests, not better guests.

I love my early guests too, but you know what I mean?

More high profile guests as it went on.

And all I wanted was to possibly put on an Edinburgh show in 2024, having had this podcast up for about a year with some high profile guests.

And it to have continued and done well.

And if I could get up to about 50 episodes, well, fuck me, haven't I achieved the exact goal that I set out?

And you know, who am I?

But I've managed it and I'm proud of myself and I'm proud of everyone that supported me and anyone that's listened.

I am really, really grateful.

I'm not just saying it, I really am.

And I hope this podcast goes from strength to strength.

And we're gonna record some new ones, probably in the early summer, so they'll come out around that time.

And I'm gonna record all the way through Edinburgh and out the other side.

So it's not going away.

I just need to really knuckle down on the fine tuning of this show.

So to today's guest.

So today I'm chatting to Alex Lowe.

We recorded this backstage at The Tyne Theatre a few days ago.

We recorded in quite a small room, so there's a little bit of reverb.

I've tried to get rid of it as best I can, but you know, we can live with it.

And this one was just like, you know, it's just a great one, this one.

I just chatted to him.

I didn't know him.

He sort of burst in on me and Jared Christmas doing a podcast back in November.

I saw his act and I really, really want to speak to him.

Obviously, you know him from Phoenix Nights and loads of other things.

He'll tell you what he's been in.

You know him, I'm telling you.

And this guy is really, really nice and just a joy to talk to.

A real easy one, this.

Easy, easy, easy.

I had a great chat with him and he was very generous and he even, you'll hear a bit in this where he actually offers to put me on his podcast, a little sort of spooky story.

So yeah, I will be appearing on the Clinton Baptiste Paranormal Podcast at some point.

Unbelievable.

So yeah, let's get into it.

This is it.

This is the 50th episode.

Enjoy it, everyone.

This is me, talk to you.

This is the man behind Clinton Baptiste.

This is the brilliant, hilarious Alex Lowe.

Welcome to Television Times, a weekly podcast with your host, me, Steve Otis Gunn.

We'll be discussing television in all its glorious forms.

From my childhood, your childhood, the last 10 years, even what's on right now.

So join me as I talk to people you do know and people you don't about what scared them, what inspired them, and what made them laugh and cry, here on Television Times.

So, because I went to Noor Hill High School in Northwest London.

And I used to go to Harrow Hill Six Form College, where some of these people you'd have come across, you know Guido Fawkes?

I've had the name, yeah.

He's like a political commentator, he was there.

Shammi Chakrabarti was at my Six Form College.

Do you know Jack Peretti?

He's done all these channel fours, he's been to be Michael Jackson's house, Neverland.

Yes.

He did sort of channel four stuff.

Yeah, like a sort of Luther type thing, yeah.

And every time, he used to write for The Guardian and stuff.

When I think back now, it was just a sort of comprehensive Six Form College, and it was just extraordinary people, they were there, you know.

Obviously, I've researched you since I've seen you as Clinton.

Because when I saw your face, when you came in to Jared, I was like, I know him from like a million things, obviously.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And even when I went right the way back to like the beginning of your acting career, and I was like, he was in Peter's Friends.

I went to the cinema to see that at the time.

That's right.

And you've been in sort of everybody's orbit, haven't you?

You've been around everybody.

I mean, the 11 o'clock show, for goodness sake.

Have I started or am I?

You can say whatever you like.

You can swear, you can not swear.

Okay.

Do whatever you want.

Look, I'm in danger of becoming a bit of a stuck record about this.

But I'm very chippy about the sort of Oxbridge thing.

Yeah.

I know anyone listening to this might go, oh, not this again.

But I do feel like, and I'm really, honestly delighted you've noticed that I've been going for years and years and years.

But I mean, I do feel a bit like I have done everything in this business.

You know, I've done films and I've written for TV and I've had stuff I've written for BBC Radio.

I've hosted shows on BBC Local Radio.

I've done game shows.

I did a game show with Noel Edmonds.

I've done stand up as two characters.

I did a regular thing with Steve Wright on Steve Wright's show on Radio 2.

I mean, thank God at 56 now, suddenly that we're at the Tyne Theatre now.

We sold out, which is amazing tonight.

And I think it's kind of amazing that I never feel like anyone's kind of throwing me a rope in a way that, and this sounds bitter and silly, but in a way that the kind of Oxbridge-y people, I'm just a lower middle class bloke from the London suburbs with no connections with showbiz, no influential friends or anything.

And I always feel like I've just been sort of always, you know, kind of journeyman actor and stuff.

And occasionally I meet people who go, yeah, never really happened for you.

I meet people who quite openly say, why are you not doing better or something?

And I think, bloody hell, it's really hard.

You're fine.

Well, I'm doing fine.

It's great.

But yeah, no, that's great now.

But I mean, you know, I always think it's because I've just had to be a jack of all trades.

You know, my parents are not so wealthy that I could just pick and choose and decide to be an actor.

And in fact, I spent my entire life looking at my shoulder, expecting to have to stop this at some point.

Luckily, at 56, I won't have to do now because no one will employ me to do anything anyway, even if I wanted to.

So you know, that's rather a long answer.

But yeah, I have been going for years and years and years.

So I was a child actor and which is amazing because my parents are not, as I say, theatrical types.

So how did you get into that?

What was the sort of route?

Well, I grew up in, you know, God, here I am.

It sounds like I'm making out, I was out pit as a kid.

It feels like that now, whenever you say anything about it.

I grew up in Pinner, right, which is a nice kind of middle class, leafy suburb.

It's literally the top of London, like on that brand.

But I come from a family of shopkeepers and my dad was a tea taster.

He used to taste tea and it sounds like a very refined thing, not really.

And my mum worked for Harris Social Services and I just think about the age of, you know, I think I was 11 and I wanted to go to a local, there's quite a serious local drama school in Pinner, which was run by two women who used to run the Guildhall or used to work at Guildhall drama school.

And it was quite a serious, proper drama school.

It's amazing really.

Yeah.

And it wasn't a sort of drama club or a little get together in a church or what.

It was a purpose built, you know, in a sort of nice house.

And it was an absolutely fantastic drama training.

And when you're 11 years old to about 18, when I stopped doing that, you're like a sponge.

You know, you just do these things as a hobby.

Yeah.

Amazing.

My parents said, Oh, yeah, if you want to go to that, because they just, you know, always a bit sort of funny about it.

It was all a bit sort of Posh and Shakespeare and Elocution.

Yeah, I get that.

Yeah.

And so I did that and I joined, they had a sort of child agent attached to it.

And my parents always worried about me, you know, doing that and not doing my schoolwork.

Ironically, when you do work as a kid, you have a chaperone, you probably end up doing more work.

Yeah, I've seen that.

Yeah, on shows I've worked on.

Yeah, they're not working much harder than you would at school anyway.

And under the stage on like musicals, just all doing their homework.

That's it.

That's it.

So I did these various things, you know, as a child actor and I was in another country, you know, which is a big hit in the West End in 1982 with Kenneth Branagh and Rupert Everett.

And I did, you know, the Adrian Mole cassette and I did, you know, a TV show for Thames TV.

What was the Thames TV one?

It was called You Must Believe All This.

It was part of a series called Theatre Box.

Theatre Box.

Yeah, I looked for it.

I couldn't see any video.

Well, I've got a video at home.

It was, ours was a Christmas special, it was in a series with Marmalade Atkins was played by Charlotte Coleman.

Do you know Charlotte Coleman?

Orange is the only fruit.

Yes.

So she played Marmalade Atkins and it was a kind of series.

I imagine the idea with every sort of pilot and our one was about Charles Dickens.

Anyway, it's long and boring, but it was, I did a lot of stuff when I was a kid.

Were you ever in Crown Court or anything like that?

I was in, what was I in those days?

I'd say what I was in.

I was in a costume drama of Mansfield Park in 1983, you know, BBC Sunday night thing.

And I did a few sort of crappy sitcoms playing kids and that sort of thing.

And then when I finished my degree in drama, I got in touch with Kenneth Branagh, who I'd met doing Another Country and bless his heart, he just set things up for me beautifully and said, do you want to come and join Renaissance Theatre Company?

Which I did and we did a tour of Uncle Fanny in this Chekhov play.

So that's quite a long way around it, but I did this degree.

You've been in that whole world for years.

I really have, yeah.

I feel like I've kind of spanned it all.

And it's funny doing stand-up comedy now.

I'm not doing stand-up, but I'm doing character stand-up.

And you're in a sort of above a pub somewhere.

And I think, my God, there have been other times I went and filmed with, I did much about nothing in Italy, and I live here.

Brian Blessed.

Isn't that the norm, though, of you sort of being literally at the London Palladium one night and then being a pub in Brixton the next or whatever?

Well, I suppose it is.

It is for me.

Different jobs.

Yeah, a lot of people are sort of, they're actors, they're very actorly, and they stay in this acting role.

I guess, I just, as I said, I've never been in a position to sit back and wait for anyone to be a part of my dog, because they never bloody will have.

But I have to say, I love being in a sort of one man band.

I mean, this character.

I mean, for me, it's extra funny because I grew up with my grandparents, and my granddad was into all the psychic stuff, and he used to take me as a kid to psychic meetings.

Not like evangelical types, but like, just your average Joe in a sort of church hall going, oh, yeah, I'm getting a Marjorie, someone with a Northern accent.

And then my nan would be like to my granddad, that's your mother.

That's your mother.

And I'm like, oh, it fucking isn't.

But he'd be falling for it, and he'd get the psychic times and all that stuff fascinates me.

And because I worked in theatre, I have a lot of friends in that.

So once I went to Truro to see my friend and Derek Acora, we can speak about him now, right?

Yes.

And I went backstage and my friend was like, be careful there.

There's a wire there.

There's a trip there.

It was like a spider's web of bits of string and all kinds of stuff.

To what end?

I don't know.

To make things rattle.

You're joking.

I'm not joking.

I'm not joking.

I can say that with an honest heart.

Hold on.

You went to the theatre and there's stuff that where he says something before his show.

And there was just like staged seance type stuff.

And I know a little bit about that kind of thing.

But the Derek Acora sort of thing, which I kind of assume is some kind of influence on you slightly.

Very much so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's so fake.

Well, do you know, I must be really naive because, you know, things like Most Wanted with a Vet fielding.

The torch and nothing that.

I mean, she believes it absolutely 100%.

I have no doubt about it.

And I've heard I'm not going to look up in all sorts of troubles.

I won't say I've heard stuff about very famous clairvoyant mediums go around the circuit now.

Yeah.

And people have said to me when I talk to them at venues that someone's partner, business partner, associate, husband, wife is sitting at the back and the technical staff are not allowed in there because this person's on headphones going, lady in the front row, blue jacket.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think what happens is quite often there's someone wandering around the foyer, isn't there, listening to people going, oh, how do they get by?

Yeah, I think they do all sorts of things like that.

They ask questions, don't they?

They might have like a questionnaire that it might be just for the theatre, but it isn't for the thing.

Just have some information.

That's it.

What did your dad do to work out your class or something?

I mean, I dare say you can find people on Facebook as well if you know.

You could do a deep dive in.

Anything happens to me online.

If I buy something and it doesn't arrive, or I think it's a dodgy company, I'll just go and come to this house.

I'll find the name of the person.

Then I'll find them on social media and contact them because you can find everyone in five seconds.

That's a bloody good idea.

You know, that's a really good idea, yeah, yeah.

You know, it was a tiny bit.

I was only in it for two minutes, whatever it is, I don't know, three minutes.

And it's sort of since we did Phoenix Nights Live in 2015, that I've sort of fleshed it out and turned it into giving Clinton a history.

And, you know, he's got a sister and a woman who lives in the flats with him and various people and, you know, and I just built it up a bit, really.

But it's great because Peter kindly let me do that.

He could have said no.

And I'm very grateful that he has, because this seems to be the only thing I do now, that's, you know, which I'm very grateful for.

I mean, you've got the podcast as well, which seems to be coming back out at the exact same time as Danny Robbins' Uncanny, which I find really funny.

Which I do very much enjoy, even though I'm a massive skeptic.

It scares me a little bit.

No, it's brilliant.

That is brilliant, actually, that Uncanny, I have to say.

That's one of those things where I do go, well, what if it's true?

But I keep thinking that if one of these days, and it's bound to happen today, just as I've got this huge audience, some ghost is going to come out the bloody woodwork and I'm going to go, I can't do it anymore.

It's all real.

Oh, really?

I think I tempt the spirits too much.

Have you ever walked under this stage?

Have you seen the mechanics under there?

Did you get someone to show you?

It's all old lifts and cogs.

It's a proper Victorian.

I think it's a hundred years old.

No, I'd love to do it.

You know, workings of the under stage of The Tyne Theatre was built in the 1860s.

You don't have any ghost stories yourself, do you?

Which you could tell me from my...

I do in theatre, yeah.

I could tell you one from...

Nothing happened.

This is the thing.

There's never any like...

There's a feeling, right?

Yeah, yeah.

So I was in this one.

It was Darlington, Darlington.

Yeah.

And I used to go in, cause I was the sound guy.

So I would go in, full forecast and stuff like that.

Now myself, I wouldn't go in, take the piss and get a dressing room one to five.

I get the best one after 10.

Yeah, yeah.

Put a fridge in there, make it all nice.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Live out of it a bit.

This one had a lot of mirrors.

I swore I could see something out the corner of my eye.

Oh, god.

Well, I'm kind of mostly blind in one eye, so I get weird little flashes and stuff.

Right.

So I just put it down to that.

And it was sort of over to the right, to the rest of the theater.

And I was in there just having my lunch and there was a knock on the door.

Do you mind we come in?

We're doing the ghost tour.

I was like, excuse me.

And there was like 20 people at the fucking door.

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And this guy came in and started walking around my dressing room going, so this used to be a fish and chip shop and there was a fire and this was the little boy's room.

And often he can be seen running around in it.

I went fucking, get me another dressing room right now.

Really?

Because I did feel creeped out in that room because I was quite far away from everybody.

Oh my god.

And there was just a vibe.

And then as I was feeling it, it was, you know, you get like a just complete circle of mirrors, like you're on the wheel or something.

Yeah.

And I was like, I definitely felt that, you know.

But I also worked on Women In Black and there was a lot of controversy in London whether there was an actual ghost spotted there during the show once.

Because one of the actors came off stage and saw another woman in black off stage while the real one was online.

Right.

I want to talk to you about that for my podcast when we record after this.

Yeah, if we could, Steve, that would be brilliant.

I do want to ask you one thing before.

I've all skipped over something.

Feel free to not answer this, but how much of what you do out there is scripted?

Or do you just have a million things that you can access?

Honestly, honestly, it's, I'd say, 90% scripted.

But I've always thought I'm much more of an actor than I am a standup.

And I used to do things like genres, which was all about people doing all this crowd control.

And I used to think, and I still think, bloody hell, you're clever to deal with this person and that one.

But I've got increasingly better at it.

You know, we had, two nights ago in Lincoln, I could hear various chatting throughout, it's my most hated thing.

And a woman got up and she said, I'm sorry, I'm not putting up with that, Clinton.

Someone just threatened me.

And I said, would you want to move away?

But it's so funny, just all the magic you've kind of built up stops when it's like, oh, someone's being horrible to someone in the crowd.

And I said, no, that's right, my love, come on, calm down, calm down, stay in character.

And it was some people have been really horrible to this woman.

You know, it's like she turned around and said, could you shut up?

They called her a effing whatever.

I love the way you don't swear when you're yourself.

And then she, come on, and then she, someone is sort of was gonna punch her and then the wife's gonna punch her.

It was all really horrible.

And then the sort of, you know, the surety came at the end after the whole thing was over.

But so when at times like that, you just have to kind of deal with it.

Oh, there's, you know, someone keeps shouting out, we were in Bolton, there was a woman who wouldn't shut up the other day.

So I'm kind of better at doing that stuff now, like anything's just experienced.

The more you do this stuff, you just build up a sort of backlog of stuff to say.

Or the other thing is about that is, when I first started doing Clinton, from the off, we started selling lots of tickets.

You know, I thought there's every chance I might have a complete whitey and just have to go, I can't do it, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm the only one talking in this room.

I can't do it.

And luckily now, touch wood, I think I've conquered that.

If you just relax and just, you know, I'm sure everyone has the nerves.

I used to suffer terribly from nerves.

Really?

Oh yeah, doing stand up and-

How did you overcome that?

I think, as I say, you just do lots of these gigs and you have a couple of times where you think, in a minute, I'm just gonna have to say, direct everyone to the box office and say, you'd have to have your money back, I can't do it.

And then if you just relax, the other thing is, don't drink too much, because that terrible hangover thing-

Before, maybe after.

Or the night before.

No, but you know if there's that thing, those hangovers where you feel you're three seconds behind what everyone else is saying, it's fatal for this, where you've really got to be sort of clicking away and thinking and listening to yourself and listening to them and thinking about what the next bit is and picking up props correctly.

That's good advice, because I'm actually taking a small show to Edinburgh this year for the first time ever.

I'll be there, I'll see you.

Oh, really?

I'm doing one night.

When are you there?

I'm right at the end.

Yeah, I'm doing the whole thing, I'm doing the whole thing.

Bloody hell.

Yeah, I'm doing a show based on the book with some stand up.

I've worked it all out, but again, I'm not for money.

I don't have money.

We've had to like really scrimp and say to send me up there and it does feel very hard to do now.

Very hard, yeah.

But I've been doing some acting lessons to help me with my stage fright, because I'm not a natural.

I've been in rehearsal rooms with Stephen Daudry.

Yes, of course.

I've seen everything.

Yeah, yeah.

But I'm just sort of...

Well, that gives you a hell of a head start.

Well, I've absorbed it, but I've not used it.

It's very much Phoebe with the guitar.

I need to pick up the guitar.

Yeah, the frustrated musician stroke comedy person pressing buttons for 20 years going, I'll do it one day.

Mate, hats off to you.

Because it's great that we're still doing this now at our age, isn't it?

I do feel, well, yeah, I feel...

I mean, with you, obviously you've had a massive lease of life with this character since 2015.

And you're in your 40s then, right?

So yeah.

And I feel very much like I've just left college and I'm about to start a whole new career.

I don't feel I'm in any way like...

My granddad by this point was done, you know?

He was done, done.

He was just sitting around reading the paper.

I know.

I agree with you.

You hear people, don't you, going, I think I might take early retirement.

You go, what?

What are you talking about?

All the 61 and they're like a dodgy old man.

I know.

I don't understand it.

Is that mean?

I don't understand.

No, no.

But of course the other thing is it's all happened so quickly.

I can't believe I am 56.

From 30s to 50s is a bit of a quick one, eh?

Oh, it's amazing.

I mean, I've been knocking around with Eric Rushton, who's a young comedian.

He's just won this Sean Lock Award.

He's been supporting us.

Harry, my tour manager.

And you know, they are considerably younger than me.

And I just sort of assume we're all roughly the same generation.

We're not.

I'm easily old enough to be their dad, easily.

And they're talking about sort of, I mean, I do occasionally, you know, my references are so bloody old.

Do they get Alan Partridge?

Do they start talking about level 42 or does it?

Do I get Alan Partridge?

Well, you've been on it.

Yeah, I do get a bit like that.

But then again, I don't know what I think happens.

I think as you get older, I think you just want to communicate as precisely as possible.

And if it means using slightly old fashioned words or, you know, it's not the current zeitgeist, you were saying something, I can't be bothered with that.

I'd rather communicate just to get my point across.

Time is of the essence.

I've got time to think about, oh, is this the correct way the kids would be saying this?

Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it?

Like I've done standup where one of my references was Michael Flatley and it was to do with COVID, you know, at the bar, like Michael Flatley.

Don't tell me they didn't know?

I looked out, I was about 18.

And I was like, fucking hell, they're not going to know this.

I'm going to have to change that name.

I was up there talking and I was like, I've got to change the name.

They're not going to know who this is.

I know.

I know.

I mean, but it's very difficult.

I mean, I'm sure loads of comedians say this, that there aren't these cultural touchstones now.

So you assume, back in the day, everyone knew, you know, for example, the tax dodger who's on telly or the who's renowned as the most sexy woman on telly.

And that would be university, everyone's, or, you know, the bad boy sportsman or something.

It's a bit like now, everyone who watches has so much stuff to absorb.

No one has the same cultural references.

That's true.

They're quite personalized as well, because we don't know, you don't know what anyone is actually seeing.

No, that's right.

You know, it's like their own channel.

No one's really, yeah.

I mean, I mean, there's a bit in this where I was referencing Judith Chalmers.

The kids didn't know Judith Chalmers.

They didn't know Judith Chalmers.

Yeah, but that's funny, because your channel would reference Judith Chalmers.

Well, I know, but I've changed it to Jane MacDonald now, and they get it.

It was equally so.

Slightly back ten years ago.

Yeah, but I mean, Judith Chalmers was hilarious.

And it was, it went something like, you know, I went to, I've been doing readings for celebrities.

And the wonderful thing is I get to see inside the houses and celebrities, Judith Chalmers.

And I'm like, shit's on.

To me that's amazing.

Judith Chalmers living in a shithole.

It's funny.

It's amazing the stuff the kids don't know, isn't it?

Well, there's this weird thing, and I'm not shitting on Gen Z or millennials or anything like that, but there is this weird thing that I've heard from a lot of people where they say the line, like, oh, it's before I was born, I don't know what that is.

And you're like, so what, if you were born in 2003, you don't know what 9-11 is.

I wasn't around for JFK, but I know it happened.

Don't start me.

You know, anyway, there's a bit of that going on, which is very lazy education, it annoys me a little bit.

Now, here's something, it does annoy me.

It's a bit like before, nothing existed before the internet.

This, and also, to be serious, that's deeply, deeply worrying, given the lessons of how fascism rises.

We never learn, do we?

It's human beings.

And, you know, all the same, you know, tropes and all that stuff that the Brexiteers and the right wing come up with, it's straight out of the fascist, you know.

It's like a back to Enoch Powell now, the reference to Enoch Powell.

What am I, one?

That's what I mean.

And you think, my God, don't you realise it's all been seen before?

And it lets you learn from these things.

But anyway, what I was going to say about that was, here's an interesting one.

I had exactly that conversation.

You might even mention the Peter Serafinowicz show, which I did.

Oh yeah, I loved that show.

So do you remember Peter playing John Lennon and Benny Wong playing Yoko Ono?

And it was a parody of Imagine.

And he was sat there at that white piano in that billowing, you know, the billowing curtains in that white room.

You're not touching it.

And this is a good few years ago now, right?

When did we do this?

2007, something like that.

And I went to watch them filming this particular sketch.

Yeah.

As I was stood there, the makeup girl was there.

Yeah.

And she was probably in her mid-20s.

And I heard someone say, you know, John Lennon, you know, John Lennon?

And she went, and I said, excuse me, please tell me you know the judge.

And someone went, you know, and she said, yeah.

I said, he was in a famous writing partnership.

And someone said, you know who Paul McCartney is, don't you?

And she went, is it Stella McCartney's dad?

And I thought, and so anyway, later on, I was having me hair done to go and do a sketch.

And I was saying this to the senior makeup woman.

And she said, well, you know, she may not like the music you like.

I said, I don't particularly like Glenn Miller, but I know who he is.

And if you worked in the media, and you presume you've got a passing interest in, you know, media culture, the arts, performance.

Yeah, yeah.

You must have been living in a cave, not to know this.

On a similar slight tangent.

All the, I've said it before, you know, these could be kind of the media, that these different platforms, what we're doing now, podcasting.

Yeah.

You know, I can come here and fill out this whole, probably to a great extent, due to my podcast and appearing on stuff.

I can't pretend people aren't coming because they've seen Phoenix Nights.

Yeah.

But it just affords me a chance to kind of actually get my stuff out there because as I've said to you, I spent many, many years knocking on the door at Radio 4, having a meeting about a meeting about a meeting.

And then the producer, some Oxbridgey bloke disappears, doesn't get what I'm doing.

Yeah.

You know, I'm, as I say, not...

You'd be censored to death.

Oh, absolutely.

So heavily, you wouldn't be able to say what you want.

You can sort of do it now.

And it's much more of a meritocracy if people want to see you.

And that's the great thing.

I spent many years, we were saying, I don't know if there's a market for that.

Clearly there is.

But you know, I mean, I was really disappointed when I did this Barry from Watford, sorry, I'm slightly changing the subject.

All I'm saying is, it's great to have these different platforms now.

Didn't you do a podcast like in 2010?

I did.

That's like really early days.

I did very, very early.

Yeah, very, very early.

We did one, which we did about a couple of episodes before, which was completely the wrong idea.

I did one in 2007 and why didn't I keep going?

I don't know, wait, what was I doing?

I can't remember the people, Daryl Denham was involved who used to be a DJ on Virgin.

And he started doing podcasting at a house in Highgate, in Highgate.

And they started broadcasting these podcasts.

And it was just before their time, they got all this equipment.

They'd heard sniff that this was gonna be the next big thing.

And I think they just sort of couldn't afford to do it, but they'd clearly got onto something.

And I went in as Barry from Watford.

It was a terrible, terrible idea, which was Barry was sort of an ex-porno actor talking about his days in porno.

So, you know, I had her and then I banged her over the desk and then it was, then the director come in and said, will you do a bit of a girl act, two birds and you.

And the idea was just funny.

His face changed so much in that.

I can't describe it in an audio format.

It was the wrong thing.

I don't think people liked to hear this old man talk about sex.

Well, that made me laugh a lot, you know.

So she sucked me off and then I come out and then another lady come in and that was one joke about doing talking porno stuff.

And then I thought, oh, that's not quite right.

You just stopped immediately.

Yeah, Barry's gonna make a comeback soon.

I'm gonna get Barry to support Clinton.

I mean, whether I've got the energy, I mean, I'd say I feel young and it all happened quickly.

But the first time ever, I suddenly felt exhausted today.

All this travel and then you got to do 75 minutes performing.

I'm sorry we're doing this.

No, no, I'm delighted to be in this show.

Well, basically, a guy took Umbridge and sort of came after me and chased me at a school.

We was at like a PTA gig in Winchester, and it was all really nasty.

And I mean, I couldn't quite believe it, because I was obviously this kind of mad, larger than life character with a blonde wig and white suit.

I don't know why he possibly could have thought I was being serious.

And my agent had to sort of rugby tackle him.

And then at the end of it, I sort of went out to the car park.

He was waiting for me.

But, and it was fine.

And I sort of laughed it off.

But a couple of days later, I had complete PTSD.

I thought, this guy was going to kill me.

I mean, all his contemporaries in this hall, there must have been 300 people there, couldn't stop him getting up and coming after me.

He's about 20 years younger than me.

He clearly had sort of, I think he had a drink problem.

He'd been drinking.

But he was wanting to do me serious damage.

And at the time, you kind of think, oh, it's a comedy event.

How bad is this going to be?

But two days later, it was a football match.

And I suddenly thought, oh my god, oh my god, that bloke was going to kill me.

You know, and it is, so that's pretty horrible.

But, and in terms of, you know, people taking umbrage, I've had, I did, you know, that gig in Bracknell, what's that called?

The Comedy Cellar or something.

And a guy, you know, not long after that, so I was already feeling a bit vulnerable.

God, is this distasteful, what I'm doing?

Got up and said, I've just been to a funeral today, so I'm sorry, I'm sitting this out.

And they did a big thing of walking across the stage.

And now, to be honest, now, that wouldn't bother me.

But at the time, I thought, oh God, I'd not long started doing Clinton.

I started thinking, maybe this is really horrible and it's upsetting for people who've lost someone.

But I've lost people here in my life.

I mean, that's part of life.

I mean, what you're lambasting and taking the piss out, you're not being horrible to the planet, you're taking this out of yourself, right, really.

I think Clinton, yeah, Clinton would be a second hand car salesman or something.

You know, he's not.

Prime Minister.

I feel it's a bit like, I hate to say it, but Derek Acora, you know, who stopped playing football, must have thought, what can I do?

What can I do to get on the telly if it's not going to be football?

I know, I'm a clever, I'm medium psychic.

Anyway, so that's happened.

And then I've had people turn up who think it's a real seance type thing.

Really?

Canterbury, an entire row of people.

And of course, you just see them after 10 minutes in, you see them get up en masse and walk out, you think, oh God, was it that terrible?

You know?

Yeah, yeah.

So I do get a bit of that, but not that often.

What I have, I mean, I could show you a video on my phone where this was nuts, this, and I know I'm going to be shot down in flames.

People are going to say, oh, it's like, oh, the Daily Mail speaking, but I literally came out, I did Top Secret in Covent Garden.

Very, very young audience, ridiculously young audience.

They're like 18 years old, I seem to go there.

And it was always quite a good place to try out new material.

And I was there, this is one of the dangers of going on stage where I thought I'm lost now.

And I came out and I said, what's your name, love?

What's your name, my love?

And this young girl, it was already difficult, which was just after COVID.

There were all these plastic sheets up.

I had an extra long mic to speak to people because I couldn't go near them.

I turned on, oh God, it's hard enough, this, without this.

I went on and I said, what's your name, my love?

And this girl went giggled and I said, no, no, seriously, my love, what's your name?

Thinking, throw me a rope.

This is a bloody new material, my love.

They paid about a quid to go in.

If you remember, it's about a quid.

So she went, I said, no, grief can do that.

People that can't speak.

I said, either of your names, either name.

And she went, this was a white or middle-class studenty girl and she went, just because I'm white, don't assume I've got two names.

And I just thought, what does that mean?

And I said, sorry, did you just say, just because I'm white, don't assume I've got two names?

And I said, and I suddenly thought, God, I'm living in a parallel universe.

I can't, you can't ask someone's name now.

So I said, you know, I'm Playa Vine.

I saw a lot of things, but I didn't fucking foresee you saying that.

I said, I can't say I noticed you were white, my love.

Just a bit of a prick, really.

So anyway, I sort of dealt with it, but I was absolutely livid.

I just thought, what?

I don't get it.

What are you trying to do?

So it was a fact that you were sort of saying that she might have a two surname name, like a sort of-

No, I think it was, you're making an assumption, me as a white woman, that I would have two names.

Although that's an interesting point.

Maybe she's assuming, I think, she had a double-barrelled surname.

Well, I assume a surname, because the other way would be like American White Trash name, right?

Yeah, that's right.

But you know, Martin Luther King had three names.

He's black, so I'm not making any assumptions about anything.

That's ridiculous.

So, Sugar Ray Leonard.

Modern references, yeah.

All right, so anyway, I just couldn't believe it.

And it was someone I can't remember.

It was a stand-up comic, tweeted this and said, oh my God, I've just been in a gig where I've seen, and I remember his name, and I have to get in touch.

And I went, oh my God, I'm so glad you saw that.

It absolutely freaked me out.

And I went back to my wife as a schoolteacher.

My wife is mixed race, the poor woman hears racism from white to black people to white.

You know, she's poor thing, hears it all.

Still going on.

Yeah, and she sort of seems uniquely placed to hear everybody's prejudice because she's mixed race.

And she said, oh, no, no, no, I've heard that a lot in schools.

It's like, it's not just ethnic minorities who are allowed to be offended, I'm offended.

It's almost like an allegy of is it because I is black?

It's like an ironic take of, yeah, I'm allowed to say that as well.

I just don't get it.

And even now, I find it odd.

But it did make me think, I'm not going to be able to do this anymore.

I can't even say what's your name, love.

Yeah, I'm wondering how the sort of tip turned around this subject, but like with modern sort of pronouns and stuff like that, you could easily get into all kinds of trouble in an audience now, I'd imagine.

Well, I suppose, you know, that is the thing about playing a character.

You can get away with an awful lot because it's not getting away with it, it's playing the character.

It's what he would do, he would give a shit about any of that.

That's right.

I mean, I had a line that Peter Kay wrote for me, which I've just dropped now, and I'm not even going to say it because it will be offensive to people.

But you could argue, I'm saying that in character because Clinton would say that and he doesn't see anything wrong with that.

Except that, of course, people still have to go to school and be bullied because I've said that word potentially.

But I mean, I remember this about Simon Day telling me this, you know, Tommy Cockles.

And he told me this and I thought, God, that is tragic.

And this is an example.

He has a bit, as Tommy Cockles, he says, where he says, and I was on the train going past all the suburban houses, going past me, all owned by foreigners who were all born here.

And I think that is a brilliant character line.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

It's a tiny, tiny moment.

And it just acknowledges what people of a certain age might say.

Yeah.

It doesn't mean Tommy Cockles is racist, doesn't mean Simon Day is racist.

It's just a lovely, observed line.

Yeah.

And he says, I'll be doing that.

Everyone's loving it.

And I'll go, all of my friends are all born here.

And they'll just go, oh, hold on.

What do we, what's the collective response to that?

Do we like that?

He just said foreigners.

Oh, I don't understand.

What does that mean?

Does he not like?

You know, human beings are complex.

We're made up of all sorts of views and opposites and sort of, you know.

Maybe I'm not best placed to say the only racism I ever sort of experienced was being an Irish kid in England, English kid in Ireland, all that stuff, which is bad enough at the time.

But I'm probably saying the wrong thing here, but I will leave it in.

I don't feel from the people I know and all the people I know, and I know right-wing people, I know left-wing people, I know Trump supporters, all of it.

I don't think people who are as racist as social media would make out.

I just don't think they are.

They can't be.

Otherwise, where are they?

Where are all these people?

I guess the thing is, married to my wife, I have, look, who am I to tell you I'm a white bloke from London suburbs, you know?

But that's also now something to be harassed about.

Oh yeah, not all out there.

This shit now.

But I mean, I am aware of things just because I've heard it from my wife and I've seen it with my wife.

And little time, you know, it's not Alf Garner.

It's not, you know, Tommy Robinson or something, but these little subtle microaggressions that you pick up on.

You know, I remember my wife, who is a 56 year old school teacher being followed around H&M, you know, because she was just browsing around, you know, by a shop assistant, because she is slightly darker than the other people there and she might be stealing something.

And she had to stop and say, what, why are you following me around?

I'm never using your shop again.

And so these things that she could have ignored it and gone, oh, well, you know, that's just, that's what happens.

But I wouldn't know that.

I wouldn't have believed that had she not told me that that's what happens.

So maybe you're just unaware.

I'm aware of so many things, but then you just pick up on it.

I'm sort of amazed, because I guess with you, if you're in Harrow and places like that, obviously we all grew up with a massively multicultural classroom.

I mean, I lived in Dagenham, I lived in Peterborough for a while, and all my friends were from other places.

Even my best friend who's white is South African.

It was like an absolute melting pot.

So I'm amazed this shit is still going on.

There is something about, oh God, I'm really getting in trouble here, but there's something about, you know the sort of BBC gets slammed for being Auntie Beeb, and it's sort of political correctness gone mad.

I have some sympathy for that view, because occasionally you'll get, I remember there is a sort of patronising white public school thing about the BBC, telling us the great unwashed that we might, no, no, no, we like, I remember Judy Murray going on once and saying, and we're also going to hear about Bangra this week, in a very slightly patronising Bangra music.

And she starts off the interview with Swarman by going, now, everybody loves Bollywood.

No, they don't.

They don't.

I've seen a bit of Bollywood.

I think it looks shit.

They're too long.

Those movies are too long.

I've watched Lowe's, it's been New India if you tell me.

I mean, I don't, it doesn't make me racist.

It doesn't mean, it doesn't mean I have to.

I don't like film noir.

Exactly.

I mean, I don't know it particularly.

To be honest with you, the stuff I've seen is mostly been very old fashioned stuff.

That I don't think looks, it's not my cup of tea.

I can't listen to it because of the sound.

Exactly.

Everybody doesn't love it.

Why do you patronize?

Why are you patronizing?

You know, Asian people.

Telling it into a one show story.

Yeah, so then she did that and then she said that and then one came on who was a bangle.

Now, what are you wearing on your wrists?

She said, bangles.

Oh, those are bangles.

It's like, look, as you say, we all went to school with Asian kids, black kids, you know, Afro-Caribbean, Africans.

We don't, I don't have to be patronised by you.

Bangles, I've never seen a bangle before in my life.

You're a henna.

Exactly.

I mean, when England, even to the extent that when England played Wales, you know, in the Euros, what was it?

There's a recent one.

Okay, so England knocked Wales out of the tournament.

Before England played, there was a big thing on the BBC.

Phone in, what is your claim to fame having a Welsh relative?

What is, because we do want, oh, good old Wales.

I'm an Englishman.

I wanted England to win that.

It doesn't make me a racist.

It just makes me like sport.

And I like England and I want to follow England through.

And maybe it is a form of jingoism, you know, but it's a safe thing.

It's just football.

It's just sport.

It's a little bit of fun and rivalry.

It doesn't mean I have to be gunning for Wales because poor old Wales, you know.

And then at the end of it, there was a phone in, no, the BBC leading with Wales knocked out of, was it Euros?

Not what would traditionally be England have progressed into it.

Oh, I see, I see what you mean.

And it's just so silly and patronising.

No, no, we do want Wales to, no, let's not celebrate England.

That just sounds a bit like nobody likes competition anymore, that's why the Scrabble's been remade and stuff like that, because...

Is that right?

Yeah, no, that's right.

Which is fine, I get it, I get it.

People don't like, you know, there's all, how many rounds has everyone had over a board game, you know?

So it makes it a bit more inclusive, but I want to win, sorry.

Well, I always think, I mean, having brought up my kids and experienced a lot of that environment of, you're all winners, sort of thing.

The reason, it's so obvious this, I can't even bear to say it, but the reason that sort of competition is good is because it's not because it teaches you to win, it's because it teaches you how to take it on the chin.

How to lose.

When you fail.

When you lose.

Learn from your failures.

And quite honestly, you know, I mean, I've failed an awful lot, you know, not to take it on the chin being an actor.

Yeah.

You have to have the skin of a rhino.

Yeah.

So I don't think if it had all been, everyone's a winner, here's a medal for, you know, doing a five meter swim.

You know, I think I would be in a ball now, huddled.

We'll give you one format question, because I don't want to keep you too long, because you also want to record me, which is hilarious.

If you give me a number from one to 22, I'll ask you one of these questions.

17.

17.

This is good.

What was the biggest change you witnessed television wise?

Oh, that's interesting.

Well, the money, I guess.

When I started, it was always quite good money, quite decent money.

And just over the years, I've heard every sort of excuse, you know, not to pay.

And my agent would always say something like, oh, it's mate rates, this one.

I think, who are these mates that I know in television?

You know, someone might ask me, or I've auditioned for someone I vaguely know.

Yeah.

Somebody a mate.

Someone I've worked with before.

Or it's a pact agreement.

So I don't know what that means.

It's some deal that Equity did to pay its last money.

That's like an equity minimum theatre, right?

Yeah, so that seems to have gone out the window.

I kid you not, I'm going to tell you something.

There's a TV show that's on live on a Friday night, which has just come on.

I'm not going to tell you what it is.

And I had a phone call, my agent had a phone call, do I want to be in it?

Or I don't know if it was to audition, might have been an offer, I think, if I said I want to do it, but of course I'm touring.

And it was for 300 pounds per episode live on Channel 4.

That's crazy, 300?

300 pounds per episode.

Now, that is less than I earn as a voiceover artist going and doing a tryout voiceover for Ikea.

That's less money.

And I just said, no, I don't want to do that.

I mean, I couldn't because I'm touring, but I wouldn't have done it for 300 quid.

That seems very low for Channel 4.

It's unbelievable, 300 pounds.

It was 25 years ago.

You would have got more then, wouldn't you?

Yeah, it's unbelievable.

So I think that is quite staggering how little money there is knocking around.

Let's ask Alex if he remembers his first experience of working in television.

My first experience of being on television was that thing I spoke about, You Must Believe All This, which is in the series of Theatre Box.

I was, it was 1981.

I was so delighted to get on this thing.

I did an audition at Thames Television.

It was produced by Sue Burt-Whistle, who was married to Richard Ayers, head of National Theatre.

It was a really lovely project with great production values.

You know, we were playing these sort of Dickensian kids and Charles Dickens was in.

It was a lovely, beautiful thing.

And so it was all filmed in the summer and we rehearsed in a sort of youth club in Teddington and then we went to film it.

But do you know, that is to this day, what I love, you know, being on a set, on a film set and you can sort of lose yourself and you think, God, it's almost like you're just to be transported somewhere.

And that sounds a bit wanky.

I can't explain what that is.

Just, I like the idea of being in a set and enjoying a set and inhabiting a set and escaping somewhere and all the detail of that set.

Are you like, wow, I can't believe I'm in this.

That's right.

And you feel good and you're treated nicely.

And apart, you know, unlike theatre, you get various goes at it.

You know, if you don't do it very well, you get a close up to get it right.

You know, usually.

Plus, there's just something about being in a film studio and the bell ringing and then someone saying, would you like to go to the dressing room?

Would you like a cup of tea?

Yeah, yeah.

It's so lovely and civilized and exactly what you want to do for a living.

It's just a thrill.

It's wonderful.

To be there, yeah.

And I think it's possibly to do with, I was telling Harry, my tour manager, I think my parents, you know, just worked all the time.

We're very strict sort of Protestant work ethic.

We worked nine to five.

Yeah.

You know.

They still use the line now, the government always, people work hard, you've got to work hard.

There's a lot of that.

Do you have to work hard?

Well, maybe we shouldn't be working hard.

Well, it's funny, because you and I both grew up with the Thatcher thing, which is if you work hard enough, you will get it.

Yeah, yeah.

Plainly bollocks.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it's still something I-

ITS schemes and stuff.

Yeah, but I still do that.

I mean, I just do not leave any stone unturned.

Yeah, yeah.

And bless the kids nowadays.

I know loads of people who've kind of stopped work and they're, oh no, we're going to take two years traveling or whatever.

And you go, well, why not?

You can't afford a house.

No, you can't.

What is the, I mean, you make a valid point.

This hard work that I do and all I do is work.

My wife would tell you, and it's not particularly attractive trait.

I don't really relax any other way.

I watch a lot of football, but I'm not great at relaxing any other way.

I like to have a project to do.

But I think what is that for?

I mean, to try and make your mark on, you know, in the history books, no one gives a shit.

Everyone's too busy with their own stuff anyway.

But, you know, people, as we've established, people don't know Judith Chalmers is, so why they'd remember me with my smutty jokes?

This is getting a hashtag Judith Chalmers for sure, this one.

That's funny.

Well, I think we'll end it there, Alex.

That's great.

Thanks for coming on television.

Thank you very much.

Okay, well, thank you everyone.

That was me talking to the brilliant Alex Lowe backstage at The Tyne Theatre here in Newcastle, up on Tyne, of course.

It was great chatting to him.

I heard he was a lovely guy, and it turned out he was even lovelier than I imagined.

Very giving, gave me a lot of time, we had a lot of fun.

And his character, Clinton Baptiste, is absolutely fucking brilliant.

And if you haven't before, check him out, and check out his podcast, which I'll soon be on.

Now to today's outro track.

Beep, beep.

Right, so because Alex brought up the Peter Serafinowitsch TV show, which I saw, a very funny TV sketch show from 2007, it sort of reminded me of this song that I did around that time.

It was originally a demo.

And then I sang one of my, I think, one of my better vocals, weirdly.

That's why I kept the song.

And then I overdubbed it to make it sound a little bit better.

It was on Social Interplay, which came out in 2010.

But yeah, this is just me.

It's one of my songs.

It's called The Liars.

Here we go.

It was The Liars, a song I wrote back in 2007.

So thank you for listening today, and thank you for listening to the last 50 episodes.

Today's was a great one.

We're gonna take a tiny, tiny, tiny break while I concentrate on my Edinburgh show.

But we'll be back again very soon.

Thanks for listening, everyone.

And don't worry, we'll be back.

We're not going away for long.

See you soon.